What ending do you feel is the most Cannon? (all end spoilers)

[Catolf]

I've been wondering what Atlus would say would be the true end for the game, considering there is three and not one, which one do you think is the end all ending? As much sweet and sugar Katherine's end all was I don't think that is it. And as awesome as Catherine's end is, I doubt it too (dammit i wish I didn't cause it's so good, best ending in any game period for me right now) but it seems the true freedom end makes the most sense for the tone of the game. Vincent just get's tired of it.. he did all that fighting to get to the top and what he had to show for it was, well nothing but a new outlook on life.

He didn't need to be tied down to anyone right now, though he did tell boss to keep Catherine on standby so to speak, so who know's, maybe is a combination of both True freedom and Catherine's end, cause lets face it.. Vincent is pimp!

I wanna post the awesome image i have but i don't want it to be on the first post so people can back out if need be and not get spoiler blasted!

[lostleader]

I was wondering this myself but I have to agree that it is between True Katherine Ending and True Freedom Ending. And while the True Freedom Ending gives Vincent the chance for more adventures I honestly think the True Katherine Ending is (the most) Cannon.


Comparing the two Endings Katherine is the one that has the biggest resolution and acts properly with Vincent through the story.
-Throughout the story Vincent picks Katherine and avoids Catherine no matter the players actions. This is especially apparent during the Cathedral stage and the cutscene before it.
-In K's true ending all the side characters have their problems resolved, Orlando is back with his wife, Johnny decides to finally find his "one", and Erica and Toby...heheh learn more about each other

[Onion of Mystery]

Canon.

The word is "canon."

You're driving me crazy.

[Manly Biceps]

Obviously the one where he goes into space is the most cannonical.

[saruthelemur]

Ignoring the fact the Manly Biceps just completely won this thread, I would side with lostleader. Going in terms of storytelling, True Katherine is the ending 95% of the game is pushing towards, and the only ending Vincent actually experiences true character growth.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Originally Posted by Onion of Mystery

Canon.

The word is "canon."

You're driving me crazy.

You and me both Onion.

Originally Posted by Manly Biceps

Obviously the one where he goes into space is the most canonical.

Is that before or after he defeats Cthulhu?

[Catolf]

Originally Posted by DarkRPGMaster

You and me both Onion.

Is that before or after he defeats Cthulhu?

One spelling mistake and people lose their minds..

[DarkRPGMaster]

Originally Posted by Catolf

One spelling mistake and people lose their minds..

For people who have it poured into their skulls everyday since elementary school, it's hard getting the "this is the correct way to spell out" out of our heads.

[Yukichin]

Originally Posted by Catolf

One spelling mistake and people lose their minds..

Considering "canon" and "cannon" are two very different words...

[KiraCoil]

I don't know if you can say Vince has a canon ending. But if he makes a cameo in Disgaea 4, Catherine's True ending would allow him to fit in nicely.

In terms of the best future for him, I would disagree on the point that Katherine's True ending is the only one where he experiences any real growth; married life isn't for everyone. And while it's true that he seems to choose Katherine over Catherine throughout the whole game, it's also true that he was motivated to take responsibility out of obligation because of the false pregnancy (which Katherine admits she could have told him about but didn't). I will grant, however, that K's true ending is a happy ending for everyone. And hopefully Toby can get over his mental hurtle concerning the loss of his V-card.

[saruthelemur]

Originally Posted by KiraCoil

In terms of the best future for him, I would disagree on the point that Katherine's True ending is the only one where he experiences any real growth; married life isn't for everyone. And while it's true that he seems to choose Katherine over Catherine throughout the whole game, it's also true that he was motivated to take responsibility out of obligation because of the false pregnancy (which Katherine admits she could have told him about but didn't). I will grant, however, that K's true ending is a happy ending for everyone. And hopefully Toby can get over his mental hurtle concerning the loss of his V-card.

Good points -- this is how I see it: Catherine Endings are just plain fun, they really don't make any sense given what happens during the game. It's negative character growth, he does something that makes no sense with the rest of his actions. But they're great.

Freedom Endings make sense with the kind of person Vincent starts out as, but in the end, that's not growing. He starts out being a lazy, irresponsible guy who doesn't want to think about commitment and just keep things on a superficial level, and that's exactly what he gets in the end, despite the entire game spent with him coming to the realization he wants Katherine.

Katherine Bad ending, I should say, actually makes the most sense. Vincent still follows through on his feelings, but Katherine doesn't believe a single word of the BS flying from his mouth about fake cheating and make-believe blonde bombshell vixens. Assuming the 'strength of his conviction' really is powerful enough to overcome logic, Katherine Good comes up....where they get back together, but he's reverted right back to where he's started. They're planning for a wedding, and he isn't pulling his weight or doing his share with any of the work. Even the achievement is entitled 'Just Like Old Times'; it's almost like he tricked her into getting back together with him just so he could go back to how things were.

Katherine True, he follows through on the character direction he explores the entire game...no matter if you're Law or Chaos, Vincent the character makes the decision through the 8 days that cheating is wrong, and through that (along with the pregnancy scare), that he's been wrong in stringing along Katherine for 5 years. He, as a character, realizes he wants to commit to Katherine. Not out of obligation, but because he knows that's what he actually wants deep down.

I totally agree with you, that marriage isn't for everyone. But the whole point of Vincent getting to the end and realizing he wants Katherine isn't so much about the marriage, it's about the fact that he's finally grown up enough to realize you have to sacrifice some of yourself and your own freedom if you want to share your life with someone. And while things like the pregnancy made him actually confront this within himself, I think way more than just that went into it.

HUGE BLACK WALL OF TEXT...sorry about that, but this is really interesting to me.

[Catolf]

Originally Posted by Yukichin

Considering "canon" and "cannon" are two very different words...

I like how this thread has dissolved into an N escaping me and I getting ragged on for it. I was a slip of a dang key good god. I'd fix it if I could but I can't, someone get a mod here ASAP there is a crisis of an N!

[Onion of Mystery]

It wasn't just you, and given KiraCoil's and saru's Walls o' Black, I'd hardly say this thread has "dissolved" at all.

[Yukichin]

Originally Posted by Catolf

I like how this thread has dissolved into an N escaping me and I getting ragged on for it. I was a slip of a dang key good god. I'd fix it if I could but I can't, someone get a mod here ASAP there is a crisis of an N!

People are still talking about it, and it was a minor correction. That's all.


That being said, I've only seen the True Katherine ending, but I quite enjoyed it.

[justdazzlin]

I'm going to be the odd one out and say Catherine True is the one I feel the most "canonical". It may not make much since given the direction of the story, but it has the "persona" feel. Plus, if the two were to make an appearance in Persona 5 as a Persona or something, that would be amazing.

[Onion of Mystery]

I'd say the Axis Mundi ending is the most canonical.

[jindan]

I gotta admit that this game is really worth the money I invested for it. Its a nice change from shooters, rpg etc. And when I made it first time for the Catherine true ending, I was really satisfied I needed a ending like that. After clearing everything I feel strangely fulfilled...Am I the only one?

[Davitofrito]

Gonna agree and say Catherine true. To me it was the funniest and made the most sense of any route Vince could take. All the choices that were given and decided lead up to Vince breaking out of the narrative that he was a man stuck in place resisting change. Catherine True would probably not be cannon but to me it will always be how I imagine him ending up and the only ending I dare leave on my PS3.

The Xbox version can have the good girl and all the nice wrappings of the True Katherine ending. Though Katherine totally thinking Vincents lost it, would work too.

I mean who didn't laugh when they saw Catherine's dad make an appearance? I broke down laughing. Vince fell for the girl that was used to getting everything she wanted and was scorned by his rejection originally. If you watch the vid you can tell the C-T ending was a shock to her and made her happy...as much as a demon can be that is.

[Liberius]

Originally Posted by saruthelemur

Good points -- this is how I see it: Catherine Endings are just plain fun, they really don't make any sense given what happens during the game. It's negative character growth, he does something that makes no sense with the rest of his actions. But they're great.

Freedom Endings make sense with the kind of person Vincent starts out as, but in the end, that's not growing. He starts out being a lazy, irresponsible guy who doesn't want to think about commitment and just keep things on a superficial level, and that's exactly what he gets in the end, despite the entire game spent with him coming to the realization he wants Katherine.

Katherine Bad ending, I should say, actually makes the most sense. Vincent still follows through on his feelings, but Katherine doesn't believe a single word of the BS flying from his mouth about fake cheating and make-believe blonde bombshell vixens. Assuming the 'strength of his conviction' really is powerful enough to overcome logic, Katherine Good comes up....where they get back together, but he's reverted right back to where he's started. They're planning for a wedding, and he isn't pulling his weight or doing his share with any of the work. Even the achievement is entitled 'Just Like Old Times'; it's almost like he tricked her into getting back together with him just so he could go back to how things were.

Katherine True, he follows through on the character direction he explores the entire game...no matter if you're Law or Chaos, Vincent the character makes the decision through the 8 days that cheating is wrong, and through that (along with the pregnancy scare), that he's been wrong in stringing along Katherine for 5 years. He, as a character, realizes he wants to commit to Katherine. Not out of obligation, but because he knows that's what he actually wants deep down.

I totally agree with you, that marriage isn't for everyone. But the whole point of Vincent getting to the end and realizing he wants Katherine isn't so much about the marriage, it's about the fact that he's finally grown up enough to realize you have to sacrifice some of yourself and your own freedom if you want to share your life with someone. And while things like the pregnancy made him actually confront this within himself, I think way more than just that went into it.

HUGE BLACK WALL OF TEXT...sorry about that, but this is really interesting to me.

...in what ways is the True Freedom or for that matter any of the endings constitute a lack of character development? The whole point of the game is that Vincent is in a rut, stuck is in a dead-end job with no real prospects, completely unmotivated and terrified of any change. Each ending simply represents the means by which Vincent can rediscover a passion for the future. True Catherine is all about Vincent fully realizing his own desires, abandoning all his inhibitions in order to live in the moment with no regrets and True Freedom is about rediscovering Vincent choosing to rediscover his own hopes and dreams, understanding that in order for him to feel truly complete as an individuals he needs to rediscover his passion for life and that he's in the wrong place for a relationship at the moment. True Katherine, by contrast, is about Vincent choosing to compromise his development and freedom in order to commit to Katherine despite his sense of anxiety for their mutual future for the sake of potentially greater happiness. None of the endings are necessarily 'wrong,' just different solutions from divergent character development and honestly the game seems to portray every solution as potentially bad or good. The only thing that matters is what YOU think is what's best for Vincent.

But yeah... True Freedom seems the most organic conclusion for me. Neither Catherine or Katherine seem to have a especially healthy relationship with Vincent and Vincent's future character development isn't as simple as 'perfect, responsible and satisfied adult (just add marriage),' so True Freedom seems to me as the least likely to blow up in everyone's faces.

[saruthelemur]

Originally Posted by Liberius

...in what ways is the True Freedom or for that matter any of the endings constitute a lack of character development? The whole point of the game is that Vincent is in a rut, stuck is in a dead-end job with no real prospects, completely unmotivated and terrified of any change. Each ending simply represents the means by which Vincent can rediscover a passion for the future. True Catherine is all about Vincent fully realizing his own desires, abandoning all his inhibitions in order to live in the moment with no regrets and True Freedom is about rediscovering Vincent choosing to rediscover his own hopes and dreams, understanding that in order for him to feel truly complete as an individuals he needs to rediscover his passion for life and that he's in the wrong place for a relationship at the moment. True Katherine, by contrast, is about Vincent choosing to compromise his development and freedom in order to commit to Katherine despite his sense of anxiety for their mutual future for the sake of potentially greater happiness. None of the endings are necessarily 'wrong,' just different solutions from divergent character development and honestly the game seems to portray every solution as potentially bad or good. The only thing that matters is what YOU think is what's best for Vincent.

But yeah... True Freedom seems the most organic conclusion for me. Neither Catherine or Katherine seem to have a especially healthy relationship with Vincent and Vincent's future character development isn't as simple as 'perfect, responsible and satisfied adult (just add marriage),' so True Freedom seems to me as the least likely to blow up in everyone's faces.

Very good points -- and I agree with them. I think in any other game, you'd be 100% right, and each of the endings would be a logical character progression from how Vincent started.

That said, I think it's different for this actual game. 99% of the narrative of Catherine is not influenced at all by what the player chooses: the Order/Freedom choices just change the ending and a few inner monologues. Looking at the actual order of external events that Vincent does no matter what:


*He cheats on Katherine with Catherine because of his fear of commitment.
*He keeps cheating, despite (or subconsciously because of) the knowledge of Katherine's pregnancy.
*After discovering Steve was potentially sleeping with Katherine or Catherine, he confronts both, and is wrong about both.
*This is when he begins to see the full picture of his relationship, and becomes determined to devote himself to Katherine. He breaks up with Catherine.
*His fear of Catherine and Katherine discovering about each other are realized (in dream form), and he then fulfills his desire of saving and mending things with Katherine. On Day 8, he's found what he actually wants.
*He wakes up, Katherine breaks up with him, and he's absolutely crushed.

On top of that, throughout the game he is constantly is trying to come to terms with how to fix his relationship with Katherine; not how to escape it, or how to run off with Catherine.

Now, this is just the stuff you can't influence...based on this story, it would seem completely backwards for him to decide after that epiphany that committed relationships just aren't for him, and go off for a permanent fling with Catherine. Equally, for him to embrace the True Freedom ending of just leaving everyone behind and doing whatever he wants...well, he's been doing that the past 5 years, just pissing off Katherine whilst doing it. The game shows him finding out that for him, he's found happiness in his relationship with Katherine.

Marriage isn't some golden saving grace for everything, but in this narrative, it feels like the organic conclusion of the story: boy is a man-child and can't grow up. Girl wants marriage, and starts getting tired of boy running from it. Boy has an adolescent tantrum in the form of an affair. Boy finally understands how selfish he's been. (This is where the story could go many ways across many endings, but it keeps on one path). Boy decides he wants to patch things with girl and comes to terms with losing a bit of his own freedom to be with her. I think it would be odd for Vincent to say after that, "Never mind about all that, I actually don't want anyone."

In the beginning, Vincent is definitely stuck in a rut, but it's purely a relationship one. He never personally expresses any unhappiness with his job, that was Katherine and her ambitiousness trying to get him to better himself. His only unhappiness is that he just wants to drink with his friends every night, have no responsibilities, and have Katherine just kind of hang around for him, but she won't let him.

I also think Catherine and Katherine are both good matches for him, for different reasons. Catherine is the type of person everyone should be with at least once, just for the pure fun (for both members of the relationship). And I think Katherine gets way too much flack...she's a mature, responsible adult, but people assault her for being a cold, emotionless controlling bitch. Truth is, aside from some of her physical outburts, she's behaving like an adult should behave. When you're 30 and expecting a kid, you can't act like Vincent acts if you're in a relationship.

[Joshua1207]

Definitely the true cheaters ending

[AbsoluteDays]

I have to go with Katherine's true ending...I mean come on, it just doesn't make sense with Catherine's true ending :S

It seemed to go something like this
Oh...the other girls dead, not really...caring much here. *Takes Katherine through the nightmare, admits love yadda yadda* Oh crap...she left me /utter shock. Nearly kill a...god, go through the worst of the worst to get her back...mid way through, decide I don't want the girl I came into this to get back? The progression after reaching the Cathedral just made no sense for the ending you were more or less expecting to get.
Yes... Yes I made it white instead, I don't know how to make it a black wall lol.

[Stardust235]

Originally Posted by Catolf

I've been wondering what Atlus would say would be the true end for the game

Imo, the true lovers' ending is the most fitting ending for Catherine. However, it is up to the player to decide which is the "true" ending.

[crimson knight]

if i ever do play the game (i am a big atlus fan but catherine just didnt appeal to me, maybe if the game was abit cheaper, im more for battles and puzzles, not just climbing up a huge one) which ending would you guys recomend i try for? or anyone try for for that matter.

[Anansi]

I say True Cheater
See Vincent isn't wholly against the idea of marriage nor is he against the whole idea of being with a girl like C. He wants to have that kinda girlfriend boyfriend kind of relationship and K was really wanting to push forward with their relationship to be a responsible man and woman getting married.

No matter what you do it all comes crashing down and it really comes down to your choice to whether you mend up your relationships or let it all go. However as the story goes along, Vincent obvious gets attached to C, who is his ideal woman and hates to let her go, but must because he feels bad cheating on K(why do you think he gets half drunk before telling C they can't be together?). While C is basically just doing her job, it obviously doesn't get in the way of her feeling more and more attached to Vincent to the point she accepts his proposal in either of the good or true cheater endings.

It's not a matter of "negative" or "positive" character growth but WHAT FEELS LIKE VINCE WOULD ACTUALLY CHOOSE!(which we don't always take the most righteous paths in life) Cheater's is what feels like what he may choose, especially after Katherine straight up shuts him out on day 8. Vincent is a guy who is living a life of chaos, look at how he lives and how satisfied he is with his life as it is. He leaves Cake out and doesn't remember it until he gets an ant problem. He drinks like 6 beers when he's trying to stay awake, leaves the cans out and smokes almost a pack a day. Even when his old job calls, he blows them off saying it's their problem they didn't keep records of what he was doing. to top all that off he leads around both C and K during the storyline. The true cheaters seals the deal in that he's in an open relationship he's comfortable with and can still be the man he wants to be, not what responsibility heaps on to him and he just happened to win big because of it.

Also with the stranger things that have happened to him (fighting a god! and cheating on his girlfriend with a succubi), him becoming a demon lord doesn't seem to far fetched in the end. Also, it seems more possible that Boss would be able to get C(a succubi who's attached to you) to the bar over K(who considers him a cheating loser that she had to lie to about being pregnant to),as you have to take THEIR personalities and feelings on Vince into account as well.