Question for Atlus about language options

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Tiamat

I am pretty sure the anime cutscenes will have english dub. I suspect the game will have english battle voices as well but it didn't say anything about battle voices in the announcement so that's just my hunch

the dub they did for Heritage of War was pretty good I thought...

They were okay but still after playing the japanese one i think the japanese ones really rings with the characters (except fanille).

[Tiamat]

Originally Posted by izanagi_the_creator

The dub for Growlanser II, Growlanser III, and Growlanser V were done pretty well. In fact, most ATLUS USA dubs are done great with few exceptions.

Atlus didn't do the dub for II & III though XD

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

They were okay but still after playing the japanese one i think the japanese ones really rings with the characters (except fanille).

I haven't played JP Growlanser 5 but I played 6 and I liked Korin's JP voice better, it's cute

[izanagi_the_creator]

Since I had spent an extra hour or two customizing the battle skills to perfection and I won't be able to do the same again, I feel reluctant playing Growlanser V again just to experience the JP voices. Besides, I have already finished the game with all the good endings.

By the way, the battle skills screen is difficult to figure out at first. I wasn't paying much attention and got duplicate skills, wasting slots but good thing it is all reversible.

Originally Posted by Tiamat

Atlus didn't do the dub for II & III though XD

Oh, that's right.. It was Working Designs.. My bad.

[dchiasson]

Originally Posted by izanagi_the_creator

Boycotting games over dual audio is seriously overboard! Boycotting the Shin Megami Tensei series over Growlanser dual audio is plain stupid!!

I agree. I'm not saying I'm boycotting all Atlus games over dual audio. Re-read what I said. I was very clear that I would choose to quit supporting Atlus if Atlus chose to completely block all conversation on the topic of audio options because they didn't want to deal with us fans that prefer the original audio track. One choice is a business decision that I don't especially like, but makes sense. The other is a poor consumer service decision that would essentially be Atlus telling a group of its fans it doesn't care about their opinions.

Originally Posted by DarkRPGMaster

Oh so true man. What I find so funny is that the pro-dual audio people don't seem to realize something that helps make Atlus' decision besides money...those who want dual audio barely make up 5% of the buys from Atlus' games, so there's no point in pandering to the lowest percentage by spending more money, when you can keep the SAME amount of money spent and keep everyone else appeased.

Do you have any sources for that 5% number? No offense, but people online like to throw out random percentages based on their own assumptions pretty frequently. If there are cold, hard facts supporting this, that makes a lot more sense and I'd understand the decision. However, in my experience, the number is quite a bit higher (I concede that it still isn't the majority of the fans, but it's still enough to consider).

[dchiasson]

Originally Posted by Onion of Mystery

I'm gonna let you guys in on a little secret:

The UMD, you know, the proprietary media format used for the PSP, actually costs more to manufacture than a Blu-Ray disc (the plastic shell, small parts, etc). Due to the handheld nature and the age of the system, PSP games have to be sold at a lower price point than other disc-based-system games. Would you pay $60 for a PSP game, even if it had the same amount of voice work as a $60 PS3 game?

...Okay, maybe a few of you would, but the vast majority of people wouldn't, just because $60 is "too damn high" for a game on a handheld system that's quickly fading as its successor enters the limelight. And even if you would, I know for a fact that no store in its right mind would pay for these games.* New games in Japan, even PSP games, still cost the equivalent of $80-$90 there (probably more now with the rising yen/falling dollar). If you factored in the costs to get this staggering amount of JP voicework - or even the costs to record this same amount of lines in English - we would literally be unable to make any kind of profit out of this game unless we charged something equivalent.

Now, some of you may be thinking "Psh, he's just making excuses, like they do every time this gets asked" (in which case I'd wonder why you're internalizing a purely vocal display of indifference), but the fact of the matter is: if we COULD work out a way to get these games to include this content at a reasonable cost, we would. But asking us to make decisions that are unreasonable is likewise unreasonable.

*In case you're wondering, the publisher sells product to the store, who then sells it to the consumer (that is, you). In broader terms, we're actually making products that the stores like, not that players like; luckily, stores like games that sell, and good games sell, and players like good games.

I totally understand the fact that you guys have to make a profit, and I get that the PSP market isn't exactly a great one in that regard considering the low price of the games. My intention in this post was not to question why you made this particular decision with this particular game, but rather to get more insight into why it seems to be so randomly difficult to get Japanese language tracks for games.

From a business standpoint, it just seems like game localization is a two-way street. Yeah, you want the game and you need the okay from the Japanese developer to release it here. On the other hand, though, their choice is to not license it and not make what amounts to free money, or to license it and make additional money on the product they were already developing for their own region.

For this reason, it seems like it wouldn't be so unreasonable for a company like Atlus or Aksys to say, "Hey, we license a lot of games from you guys. We have a part of our consumer base that really wants to have access to the voice work in the original game. Since we know this is an issue for some consumers and they're very passionate about it, can you try to work future voice actor contracts so the voice work isn't restricted to only being used in Japan?"

Again, the Japanese companies have an interest in keeping the American ones happy so they are willing to continue to pay to license games for release in the US. If they drive them away or make things unreasonable, they're losing money. Likewise, the Japanese companies have an interest in keeping the American fans happy so they are willing to keep buying the games from the companies that license them.

A great example of this is when Tetsuya Nomura was interviewed by a US publication about Final Fantasy XIII several months before its release. The interviewer asked him about the Japanese language track being included in the US release and Nomura's reply was essentially that he had no idea anyone in the US cared and that it would be absolutely possible if they had been made aware that this was something people wanted.

Also, I think your explanation about who you are selling games to is a bit misguided. While I understand that your games need to be able to find a home on retail shelves, if you sell games that the stores like but the consumers don't, they still won't sell from the store. That will make the store more hesitant to "like" your future releases. While I get that you are directly selling to retailers, you still have a major incentive to keep the consumers that actually buy the games from them happy.

[ShadowRaskolnik]

I think you should just accept Onion's response since he has most likely spent years in this industry and probably has more knowledge on this matter then some random fan. And if you can't do that I would recommend dropping the issue since it's obvious that this will go nowhere and will probably nosedive into a downward spiral like the Catherine one did.

[dchiasson]

Originally Posted by ShadowRaskolnik

I think you should just accept Onion's response since he has most likely spent years in this industry and probably has more knowledge on this matter then some random fan. And if you can't do that I would recommend dropping the issue since it's obvious that this will go nowhere and will probably nosedive into a downward spiral like the Catherine one did.

I disagree that this will inevitably spiral out of control. Thus far, I've asked some reasonable questions and brought up some reasonable points. I've had several people on the opposite side criticize me and respond in a way that indicates pretty clearly that they did not read and/or understand what I wrote and just jumped at the chance to attack someone who favors dual audio.

Again, I'm a consumer just as much as those of you who don't care about dual audio. I have just as much a reason to voice my opinion and to ask questions of a company that wants to earn my money in exchange for their products as you do. I'm not going to just drop the subject entirely because a handful of people don't want to talk about it.

[Evilkinggumby]

Wall o text mostly intended for dchiasson, those not interested best work that mouse scroll wheel.

Originally Posted by dchiasson

I totally understand the fact that you guys have to make a profit, and I get that the PSP market isn't exactly a great one in that regard considering the low price of the games. My intention in this post was not to question why you made this particular decision with this particular game, but rather to get more insight into why it seems to be so randomly difficult to get Japanese language tracks for games.

Ok so you understand the business model and why it isn't economical in any realistic way to release the games with dual audio for a relatively small niche audience of a niche audience. But you still don't get why it is difficult to get japanese language tracks for a game...

From a business standpoint, it just seems like game localization is a two-way street. Yeah, you want the game and you need the okay from the Japanese developer to release it here. On the other hand, though, their choice is to not license it and not make what amounts to free money, or to license it and make additional money on the product they were already developing for their own region.

The problem here is that there is a lot of logistics to consider, and with logistics, potential money. To implement dual audio requires not only having licensing rights to the original dialogue, but the work to implement it into the game($$), the cost of the licensing or contractual fee's for the Japanese VA's($$) and any additional testing and Subtitle development that would need to work ($$). Also consider that Atlus JP has likely researched every game's potential in outside markets and has a pretty good idea of what to expect if they were to allow a game to be localized outside their region. If they don't expect much from sales it'd be better to not bother.

There is no such thing as "free money" as (the staff here has stated a few times in other threads) localization is a partnership where they work with the developer and every change, decision, and request to modify code or alter something in the game requires the data being sent to the original dev's for analysis, testing, implementation and the like($$). You starting to gather all the dollar signs here?

What Onion and others have said is when you add up all the $$'s and then look at the limits of the medium (UMD's) and the potential profits from the anticipated sales numbers from the audience wanting DA (or not) as opposed to just foregoing the whole DA debacle and the potential dev time and cost/profits it all adds up to: scrap DA and just get that game stamped..

Also keep in mind not every developer is looking for somebody, ANYBODY to localize their games. Atlus, Akysis, etc is not going ot be able to contract with a dev to localize a game if the parent developer thinks they may be able to land a BBD with a better developer who has a stronger staff, will do it faster or for less money. This is also why at times a company will say no to localization even if there is a tiny amount of profit to be gleamed. Not to mention maintaining face/reputation in terms of quality of product.

For this reason, it seems like it wouldn't be so unreasonable for a company like Atlus or Aksys to say, "Hey, we license a lot of games from you guys. We have a part of our consumer base that really wants to have access to the voice work in the original game.

you're thinking Atlus USA would ask Atlus JP to create a business practice that mostly benefits Atlus USA? Setting up contracts with VA's in japan with the kind of clause you are proposing would be a tricky thing, and it COULD work under ideal conditions, but there is a lot fo room for problems. Would the VA be doing the same amount of work for the same pay, more pay or possibly less? Are the VA's going to get any residuals or additional consideration for their work being published twice across two different markets? Who is going to eat this cost? Will Atlus have to recoup the cost if the game they are recording for is never opted for localization after it's JP release? And if everything worked, how much potential profit will Atlus JP see for all the risk and effort?

Again, the Japanese companies have an interest in keeping the American ones happy so they are willing to continue to pay to license games for release in the US. If they drive them away or make things unreasonable, they're losing money. Likewise, the Japanese companies have an interest in keeping the American fans happy so they are willing to keep buying the games from the companies that license them.

I agree with this. But I tend to think there is also the issue of Priority and if their interest in such things is of a relatively low priority(because the issue is a small, fairly insignificant portion of their busnes model/annual profits) then what you are stating is about as high priority as me considering not thinking about sex everytime I go to the gym to work out. Yes it is a consideration, yes it is a good idea, but really, the significance of these thoughts is pretty small and so.. on with the jiggle!!!! YEAH... *cough* err.. anyhow...

A great example of this is when Tetsuya Nomura was interviewed by a US publication about Final Fantasy XIII several months before its release. The interviewer asked him about the Japanese language track being included in the US release and Nomura's reply was essentially that he had no idea anyone in the US cared and that it would be absolutely possible if they had been made aware that this was something people wanted.

Sounds like he said it in good faith mostly to save face. I wouldn't be surprised if thats just a line to appease the fans that wanted it, but it was something they had long considered and opted away from initially. I mean really, you think what celebrities tell the magazines and talk shows is truth? c'mon... just about everything is spin nowadays.

Also, I think your explanation about who you are selling games to is a bit misguided. While I understand that your games need to be able to find a home on retail shelves, if you sell games that the stores like but the consumers don't, they still won't sell from the store.

A lot is sort of inferred that you're not considering. Players like x games, players typically buy x games. Stores want to sell x games because they have the best chance to sell off the shelves, so STORE likes x games. Stores buy x games from publishers so they can sell off the shelves to players. If a publisher is selling Y game and it doesn't sell as well as X game, Store is less likely to want to buy a lot of stock or use up shelf space. If Y game is also absurdly expensive(as much as an X game, despite being legacy tech) and turning little profit despite this, it is also less likely to be grabbed by stores to sell.

So the publishers want the developers to make the games that have the best chance of being sold, so the highest demand by the stores. For these potentials to exist, gamers have to have a vested interest or a history or purchasing X game. It's all sort of win win, publisher gets game sold to store, store sells game to players, players buy game and are happy, developer looks like great people.

Now shift the dynamic to one of "small developer makes games that niche players want" and consider all the levels of profit gain and loss. Developer makes game y, publisher tries to sell game Y to store, but store is explained that game Y is not a typical X game and so rather than selling a hundred thousand, if not million copies, it will likely sell 20-30 thousand or less. Store buys 15,000 stock and distributes that to all franchise locations where of that 15,000 only 75% of the games are sold for full initial buying price. What cannot be sold with discounts is eventually sent back to the publisher for credit or buried in a landfill in new mexico. Then everyone adds up the profits from the 11,250 games sold after all the initial costs and contracts and.... yeah... I am pretty sure it's not as significant as the X games turned, and not enough to warrant future development of Y game with any more additional dev costs than is necessary.

Cheaper is better, and DA aint' cheap. niche Y games may be in demand but their numbers are a lot less than AAA X type games, so with that huge reduction comes a lot of cost cutting to make the model work and sustain.

I'm sorry you've gettin the brass knuckles in this, but this is a discussion that pops up usually a few times a year here as someone new pops on and is insistent that there isno logical reason DA should be overlooked for game Y that is slated for release... it's a merry-go-round we've all seen on here for years and it has been anything from happy magical fun land to 'something wicked this way comes' life sucking hell.. Sadly becaus of this every time it is reintroduced, the citizens here get a bit more ornery and the general disdain for it is a bit worse... you don't deserve it, but you got it. try not to take it personally.

[nacht]

If Growlanser game is an AAA title like Persona which is almost guaranteed to sold well, I will be complaining also for the removal of the voice

But seeing Growlanser is a niche title which almost people nobody knows except fans, I will take anything to bring it to the US except removable content

[total_overdose]

Don't forget technical issues arise when trying to have both JP and ENG voice tracks. I remember in the Catherine thread a mod said that the location of the JP and ENG voice tracks were in different locations and trying to implement them both would have been a coding nightmare.

Also, at least for Catherine, the animated cutscenes were edited so the mouth movements of some of the characters could fit the english dub.

[Blacksmoke]

Originally Posted by total_overdose

Don't forget technical issues arise when trying to have both JP and ENG voice tracks. I remember in the Catherine thread a mod said that the location of the JP and ENG voice tracks were in different locations and trying to implement them both would have been a coding nightmare.

Also, at least for Catherine, the animated cutscenes were edited so the mouth movements of some of the characters could fit the english dub.

They're not in different locations. But they would have to be if you want both, obviously. And since it wasn't like that from the beginning, it would indeed be a coding nightmare doing all that pathing and referencing for Atlus USA. Does Atlus USA even have advanced programmers? (the types that actually make games)

Which brings me to my point that I agree with dchiasson; communication with Atlus Japan to include options for dual audio in the development phase would be appreciated, and of course to that end discussing licensing issues for said audio tracks.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Originally Posted by Blacksmoke

Which brings me to my point that I agree with dchiasson; communication with Atlus Japan to include options for dual audio in the development phase would be appreciated, and of course to that end discussing licensing issues for said audio tracks.

I doubt Atlus USA is even in the loop for when something is in the development phase. Would you let your publishing branch for another region know when you were starting to make a game? Probably not, you'd let them find out at the same time as everybody else, as the game is not their business until you decide they can localize it there...if you even decide to let them.

[dchiasson]

Originally Posted by DarkRPGMaster

I doubt Atlus USA is even in the loop for when something is in the development phase. Would you let your publishing branch for another region know when you were starting to make a game? Probably not, you'd let them find out at the same time as everybody else, as the game is not their business until you decide they can localize it there...if you even decide to let them.

Atlus USA doesn't need to be in the loop when a particular game is beginning the development phase. Again, it seems like the anti-dual-audio crowd isn't even reading what's being written.

If you're Atlus, and you license 10-20 games a year from Japanese companies, you're getting a lot of games from the same Japanese developers/publishers.

If a company (whether it's Atlus USA, Aksys, or whoever else) go to Atlus of Japan and say, "We publish 10 of your games a year in the US. We pay you for the ability to do this. A reasonable chunk of our fans in the US prefer having the original language track, and we also need to include a dub because the majority prefers this. Since we know that we would like to include this option, for future releases (not a specific release, mind you, but for future releases in general), we'd like it if you could simply include the coding to find audio tracks in two locations (or whatever other small alterations need to be made that would make it a piece of cake to implement from the beginning but a huge pain to go back and change). In addition to that, when you're negotiating contracts for voice work, it would be appreciated if you could avoid clauses that prevent the work from being used in the US."

Done. Doesn't mean it'll work every time, doesn't mean it's guaranteed, but it is a reasonable request. I can't imagine that this would add any significant amount of time to the programming of the original version of the game. Obviously this step wouldn't be necessary with really obscure stuff that has no chance of being licensed, but for titles that have a pretty high chance of being licensed it would make sense.

And this notion that Atlus USA is told exactly what they will and won't release in the US is absurd. They are a business, and they have to pay for the license for the games they release here. Perhaps this is different with Atlus of Japan (and maybe an Atlus employee can clarify if this is the case), but if Atlus USA wants to license a game that is made by a totally different Japanese developer, it's a business transaction that involves an exchange of money for product.

That's actually my biggest issue here. It seems that this conversation always ends up with people declaring that the localization company has no say whatsoever and can't ask the company they're licensing things from for particular features, as if there is a complete ban on all dialogue between the two companies. This simply isn't the case.

[iammako3]

I am more curious as to why companies like NISA almost always have dual audio even for their very niche games, but larger companies have problems with dual audio -- whether they be space, money, or licensing issues. Is this because NISA mostly brings over NISJapan games? Are they better connected to their parent Japanese company than AtlusUSA is to Atlus Japan?

Not a compaint per say -- I still buy dub-only games -- I am simply curious and confused with these kind of conflicting examples.

[Tiamat]

Originally Posted by iammako3

I am more curious as to why companies like NISA almost always have dual audio even for their very niche games, but larger companies have problems with dual audio -- whether they be space, money, or licensing issues. Is this because NISA mostly brings over NISJapan games? Are they better connected to their parent Japanese company than AtlusUSA is to Atlus Japan?

Not a compaint per say -- I still buy dub-only games -- I am simply curious and confused with these kind of conflicting examples.

I think it just depends on the way the contract is written for the original Japanese version. Some are written in a way that makes it easy to include the JP voice track in localized games.

Atlus has some dual audio games too, like Riviera and Yggdra Union on PSP

[total_overdose]

dchiasson, I think the main problem is there really isn't a "reasonable chunk" of people wanting the JP dub enough to warrant the cost of extra programming, licensing fees, etc (especially if it comes out of Atlus US's pocket).

So why would small companies like Atlus USA spend extra resources to please a small minority?

Also, Atlus JP develops games for the Japanese market. Why would they include extra coding (and pay for extra licensing fees) for a potential english release when the game might not even make it to the US?

Deals fall apart all the time, even for games that were originally going to be localized (Original Devil Summoner, anyone?)

Your idea makes sense in theory, but...I just don't think it would ever happen.

[Blacksmoke]

Originally Posted by total_overdose

dchiasson, I think the main problem is there really isn't a "reasonable chunk" of people wanting the JP dub enough to warrant the cost of extra programming, licensing fees, etc (especially if it comes out of Atlus US's pocket).

So why would small companies like Atlus USA spend extra resources to please a small minority?

Also, Atlus JP develops games for the Japanese market. Why would they include extra coding (and pay for extra licensing fees) for a potential english release when the game might not even make it to the US?

Deals fall apart all the time, even for games that were originally going to be localized (Original Devil Summoner, anyone?)

Your idea makes sense in theory, but...I just don't think it would ever happen.

Other publishers (NISA, Aksys, and even Sega) have made do in the past doing exactly that. Atlus USA has done it too, actually, but for some reason only with their more niche games, for which I still applaud them. Anyways, I know this isn't a thread about what other publishers do, but...I think it shows you can still be profitable and what-not.

[Temuthril]

Atlus USA might have higher profit margin requirements than others.
NISA for example might cater to a more specific niche that values the original audio track more as well.

[Hraesvelgr]

I get rather tired of seeing NISA brought up whenever this topic is discussed. They are a smaller company that releases lower budget games, often with less voice acting. Just because it's profitable for NISA to release some mediocre game with dual audio/Japanese audio only, that doesn't mean it's profitable for Atlus to do the same.

[Onion of Mystery]

Also, I don't know the exact relationship between NIS JP and NISAmerica's licensing deals, so I can't compare them to the ATLUS / ATLUS USA relationship. And even if I did, I probably wouldn't be allowed to disclose that information.

[iammako3]

Originally Posted by Hraesvelgr

I get rather tired of seeing NISA brought up whenever this topic is discussed. They are a smaller company that releases lower budget games, often with less voice acting. Just because it's profitable for NISA to release some mediocre game with dual audio/Japanese audio only, that doesn't mean it's profitable for Atlus to do the same.

NISA, Aksys and XSeed are probably the other companies close to Atlus in type of game they publish here in the US. Does anyone have the statistics of how many of their games include Japanese audio?

Sometimes it seems more strange to me that small companies leave it in while big ones (like Namco Bandai and Capcom) will leave it out. It's a very confusing situation (save for when disc space issues are involved -- that I get) that I'll probably just have to chalk up as being a mystery for now.

[Olethros]

EKG, I applaud your restraint and your very well thought out and well worded attempt to get through to these handful of characters. Unfortunately they're incapable of accepting logic on the issue anymore than a religious zealot would allow you to explain away his/her god(s). My method of somewhat subdued belligerence isn't any more effective but it is highly more satisfying.

For all of you, know that I didn't start out severely disliking the DA crowd. I was actually even sympathetic to the cause at one time (even though it never meant anything to me personally) but the years of seeing this kind of thick-skulled zealotry has soured me on the supporters. I still don't really care about the issue itself, more or less, but I cannot abide the absence of logic and blatant entitlement displayed by it's spokespeople.

Finally, a word of advice for all the would be debaters: "You didn't read and/or understand my post" is a piss poor tactic. I guarantee 99% of the people you accuse this of did read and comprehend what you supposedly so eloquently wrote. If you've got nothing better to come back with or cannot back up the claim, just don't bother continuing. You only make yourself look more foolish.

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by Olethros

Unfortunately they're incapable of accepting logic on the issue anymore than a religious zealot would allow you to explain away his/her god(s). My method of somewhat subdued belligerence isn't any more effective but it is highly more satisfying.

I think you may be on to something.. High time I change my tactics and shorten my eulogies... lol. Especially after I tried to really methodically lay out a bit of reason and for it was.. well.. generally passed over.

If you've got nothing better to come back with or cannot back up the claim, just don't bother continuing. You only make yourself look more foolish.

Yes, for everyone's sake, people...

[ShadowRaskolnik]

You should have put in a little fire and brimstone into that post of yours EKG. Make those heretics fear the sin of dual audio.

But seriously speaking you did bring up some good points, it's just too bad they were ignored in what basically amounted to a "No, you're wrong" post.

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by ShadowRaskolnik

You should have put in a little fire and brimstone into that post of yours EKG. Make those heretics fear the sin of dual audio.

But seriously speaking you did bring up some good points, it's just too bad they were ignored in what basically amounted to a "No, you're wrong" post.

See that's the kicker, much like Olethros, I am not a hater or wholly against DA. If it happens, I think it's a kool, NICE feature to have for those that appreciate it. Sort of like volume controls in games for music/voice/sounds/menu . Not everyone bothers fiddling with it, but for those that do it's a wonderful thing. Is it always available for games? No. Do I scream bloody murder and start petitions online to make sure a new game by a company I like utilizes it? hells no. I got better crap to do.

But I hate those that expect, demand, or oblige companies to offer it for completely illogical, insane reasons. Or those that fail to be reasonable, try to listen to both sides of the equation and give a company a little 'benefit of the doubt'.

Because really, for all the people who speak on forums like they know exactly how this whole "game making biz" works.. the folk IN THE BIZ know about 1000x more. Heck i think that was even quoted on one of the Mod's siggy's here for a while.. though my old brain fergets who.