Gamer Girls

[Evilkinggumby]

::Edit:: I just want to clarify, it was brought to my attention there is a difference between the term "Gamer Girl" and "girls who play videogames" so I apologize for the topic/terms in this OP as I was unaware of this at the time and don't mean it as an offense!

Recently, there has been a few articles popping up that are raising questions and concerns in terms of the female gamer audience on various popular websites.

One of the first, which got a lot of attention, was This "humor" article talking about conquests of women and sex on a sonic bedspread. What ensued was.. to say the least, pretty amazing(in the "watching a train wreck" kind of way).

A hefty discussion about it has been going on with the blog for the Game Overthinker (among many other blogs) and there is a more recent article on Screwattack.com that brings to light the Kotaku article and a more recent "Game Theory" episode focused on Boobs.

I was curious to see what people might think of all this. Anyone know of some really good, popular gaming sites that are directed at, or sensitive to, girl gamers? Or is the general gaming culture we live in just one big boys club and girls need to 'put up or shut up' ?

I know we have a few regulars on this site that are actual FEMALE GAMERS so I'm hoping they'll chime in and offer some insight.

I'd also like to see if people here think Atlus is helping or hurting the Girl Gamer market at all?

[Archie55]

While I am not a lady at all, I would like to thow my opinion out here. I believe that the game industry is ever so slightly sexist. For a long time, males dominated the roll of protagonist, and even when the first female was introduced, she was far from the average woman. I do not frequently go to game sites, and really the only ones I very much check frequently are Siliconera and IGN. Neither of which tend to women as a dominating trait, but it seems like IGN is pro-women and Siliconera doesn't care at all.
As far as Atlus helping or hurting... Tough to say. I would say that they are pro-woman gamer, as I have learned on this website here that P3 was originally going to have a female protagonist, but she was just cut out due to space constraints. They also never have really thrown overly masculine games out there, although there are more suggestive female demons than suggestive male demons in SMT games. I believe that they don't seem to have a heavy emphasis on what sex the player is, because SMT games are already hard, so it's not like you have to be a guy to play it successfully. So I may not have answered the questions asked... But I feel like I put out a good effort!

[maddy]

I just want it known that I absolutely hate "girl gamer" as a term.

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by maddy

I just want it known that I absolutely hate "girl gamer" as a term.

well thank god I am only using the term Gamer Girl.. muhahahah... oh wait I used Girl Gamer in my last sentence.. my bad... *facepalm*

It is an unnecessary term and I wouldn't have used it except it was more to-the-point. Though if you know or have a preferred term you and other women like, by all means let folk know. Ultimately it is better not to create and use labels for people and divide rather than combine, but since this general discussion is about a sub-culture of gaming culture that doesn't get much of a voice or attention, for the sake of clarity I felt a need to use it.

Aaand that's a really long winded way of saying "I didn't know a better way to call it.. Sorry for being ignorant."

@Archie55 Actually I think you responded in a great way. I don't necessarily want everyone to JUST answer my inquires or sound off on the topics at hand. I have no issue with discussing related concepts and ideas around this bit of Gamer Culture.

I will also add I don't JUST want to hear from the ladies. Guys are more than welcome to voice their opinion, or what they've seen amongst their friends and peers. The more the merrier, as with diversity will come a nicer rounded scope of viewpoints.

[System_Error]

"Gamer girls" are in essence Attention Whores. Girls that play video games on the other hand are just that, "Girls that play video games". Maddy & Cam obviously fall in the latter category while people like "The Frag Dolls" fall on the former.

[Saburo Hikari]

As far as I know so far though, most Atlus games tend to be a lot less sexist than most Japanese video games out there. Or at the very least, I find that the fan-service in Atlus games tend to be quite tasteful.

[TopographicOcean]

This has always been one of those issues that shouldn't be anywhere near as complex as it actually is, in my opinion.

The sad truth is that, like most forms of media, the gamer world is inherently sexist. As far as I'm concerned, is an outright truth and incredibly hard to debate otherwise (read: impossible). I'm not one for concrete statements like that, but it's hard to dispute at all.

Like most 'boys clubs', the more girls try and get their fair share of it, the more vehement and disturbed the less delightful part of the club gets.

The recent displays of venom against females in the gaming world stems from the fact that the tables are turning and females are becoming a larger part of the fanbase and industry. At least, that's the way I see it. However, I think this is just the beginning of the true viciousness which will hopefully make way for a brighter and fairer future in gaming.

All that said, however, with regards to actually being a gamer and ignoring the actual content of videogames, gender is irrelevant. You're not a 'special case' for being female, nor are males the rulers of the domain. Not in my eyes. You're a gamer. Nothing more, nothing less.

Just and FYI: I'm male and was introduced to gaming by my older sister. So, gender really is irrelevant to me. I also hate the whole 'getting beaten by a girl' attitude thanks to this. Sadly, part of the macho gamer 'tude must come from this as well...

[kratoscar2008]

i say stop getting all your day on facebook and grab a Control.
From where i come facebook are for girls and gaming is for boys. Regrettably thats is a "Inconvenient truth" that must be acknowledge is hard for my to believe that most girls that i know prefer to spend 5 hours on facebook chatting than grab a control and kill some shadows. Im not sexist or nothing like that in fact i really support the gender equallity (I dont give my seat to girls because they have the right to stand in the bus just like boys does) and i have forfeit some play hours to make my sister a gamer and it have been a success at some point since she still prefer to stay on Facebook all the freaking day.
So "gamer girls" stand and claim your place as a rightful part of the gaming world (and in any place) and let your voice known.

well ATLUS is not sexist i think. P3P was proof of that with the female main character and if they put a gender selection in Persona 5 (or Growlanser 7 if it comes) they will cimment that. But still the game world is still mostly populated for guys so espect from the industry to still focus on male only.

On that note my sister cant kick my ass in versus games but she is much better than me in games like Okami Kingdom Hearts or spyro the Dragon and it doesnt bothers me.

[Leilee]

Hm, gosh, I'm not even sure where to start. Sorry if I sort of meander a bit, but feel for this case it might be alright to, since its a pretty broad topic to explore.

Female gamers and designers though definitely are getting quite a load of crap from people in general. I've been gaming since I was about 5 years old or so. My earliest memories involved playing Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest and being scared of the red bats and witches in the swamp!

You know, the content producers kind of perpetuate the gap when they make stuff like FFX-2. Now, I don't overall like FFX, but I actually appreciated Yuna overall as a character. Someone who was willing to give up her own life for her world because she loved it so much is pretty admirable. Then they have the nerve to totally screw up this kind of character in the second game making her a...pop star? Then you have a goth chick and a skank follow you around. To me, this game just shows everything wrong in the industry further than "hot chicks sell" to having a story that barely is coherent to really stupid mini-games. It really was meant for the lowest denominator.

Unfortunately, most of the mainstream games are heavily male dominated, and that makes it hard to get girls into them past puzzle games when they feel they have nothing that connects to them story wise. This must be why games like KOTOR or Dragon Age do so well, since they can play a role they actually feel comfortable with. Also, girls (myself included) tend to enjoy games where collaboration is key to success. Perhaps there is a way to incorporate this into games more where there is a lack of violence, ala Portal 2 or Minecraft.

Maybe as more women enter the industry we'll see creations from teams catering to a female market beyond something stupid like those fashion model ones or Hannah Montana.

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Leilee

Hm, gosh, I'm not even sure where to start. Sorry if I sort of meander a bit, but feel for this case it might be alright to, since its a pretty broad topic to explore.

Female gamers and designers though definitely are getting quite a load of crap from people in general. I've been gaming since I was about 5 years old or so. My earliest memories involved playing Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest and being scared of the red bats and witches in the swamp!

You know, the content producers kind of perpetuate the gap when they make stuff like FFX-2. Now, I don't overall like FFX, but I actually appreciated Yuna overall as a character. Someone who was willing to give up her own life for her world because she loved it so much is pretty admirable. Then they have the nerve to totally screw up this kind of character in the second game making her a...pop star? Then you have a goth chick and a skank follow you around. To me, this game just shows everything wrong in the industry further than "hot chicks sell" to having a story that barely is coherent to really stupid mini-games. It really was meant for the lowest denominator.

Unfortunately, most of the mainstream games are heavily male dominated, and that makes it hard to get girls into them past puzzle games when they feel they have nothing that connects to them story wise. This must be why games like KOTOR or Dragon Age do so well, since they can play a role they actually feel comfortable with. Also, girls (myself included) tend to enjoy games where collaboration is key to success. Perhaps there is a way to incorporate this into games more where there is a lack of violence, ala Portal 2 or Minecraft.

Maybe as more women enter the industry we'll see creations from teams catering to a female market beyond something stupid like those fashion model ones or Hannah Montana.

Hey i liked X-2. maybe Yuna is now different from X but thats because Tidus showed her that she had to live to the fullest like he just did and beside if you ignore all the incoherences you find a really lovig history.
You forgot the date sims from Twilight

[Leilee]

Even if she is living life to the fullest, it just seems her becoming a pop star of all things is just strange. =/

I say it was just an excuse to put her in booty shorts!

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by Leilee

Even if she is living life to the fullest, it just seems her becoming a pop star of all things is just strange. =/

I say it was just an excuse to put her in booty shorts!

see I actually thought the sequel was designed to sort of try and lure in more girl gamers and the guy gamers too. It felt so super-saccharine sweet with the music and colors and outfits and stuff. I liked the game(still need to go and play through all of it though).

I'm intrigued to see you hated the whole concept. So then if you were to make a x-2 how would you see the motiff/plot?

I asked originally about Atlus because interestingly enough it seems ot be a lot of what Atlus does actually attracts girls to the party. When I first heard about and was intrigued by Catherine, I figured it was the type of game girls would never play, or be terribly offended by because of the blatant use of.. well. Catherine to sell it with her sexiness. But now that it has been out a while.. I actually see a LOT of girls that love the game and are doing fan art/stories/cosplay/clothing designs based on the many characters (and not just out of Japan,. mind you). I've also seen a number of posts on these boards and elsewhere of folk stating their wife/girlfriend loves the persona games and then started playing other SMT games. My wife loves Persona 4.

I don't think it's fair to speculate that all girls/women prefer Facebook/casual web games. Whereas they may make up a large part of the populace, I think it is the fact the games are accessible from anywhere, are free (except for when you get suckered into paying for tokens) and can be played on a fairly active lifestyle(easy to pick up, play, put down and come back to it). My wife also habitually messes with facebook games, but it is far from her "preference".

Though it doesn't seem like casual games are as rampant with psycho competitive douche's flaming eachother.. also kind of a "perk".

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Originally Posted by Evilkinggumby

see I actually thought the sequel was designed to sort of try and lure in more girl gamers and the guy gamers too. It felt so super-saccharine sweet with the music and colors and outfits and stuff.

My understanding is that that sort of thing is actually aimed at men in Japan. Further evidence: Azumanga Daioh, K-On!, Lucky Star, et cetera.

I don't really care about this issue. Like most things in life, I think other people take games too seriously. You don't see people wondering about "girl movie watchers" or "girl music listeners." (Which is odd, because tv shows and movies strike me as sexist quite frequently, doubly so if we count advertisements.)

That said, most of the games I play are pretty gender-neutral. Even the games aimed at (lonely Japanese) men. Nothing strikes me as particularly girl-unfriendly about Atelier Rorona, for example.

[kratoscar2008]

Quite frankly the game industry took a move forward by adding female main characters that arent necessarilly for men (Unlike Tomb Raider Fear effect and Bayonetta) like Lenneth (valkyrie profile), Terra (final fantasy 6), Nariko (heavenly sword) and others that arent there just for looks. For example who would have tought that the one that began the Metal Gear Solid series was a woman and to boot so good character like The Boss. The only way i see that happening is because the role of women in gaming has changed but not the custtomers that the industry is aimming for.

[Evilkinggumby]

In line with this discussion, I figured I'd toss this more recent event/article out there since Atlus is putting games out that may very well be used and promoted during these tournaments.

http://www.giantbomb.com/news/when-p...-updated/4006/

Word of warning there is some pretty nasty language in the article as he transcribed a lot of what was said so, you may want to skip it or not read it at work.

It is more about competitive gaming and sexually harassing/derogatory trash talk during matches, but it looks like there is also some commentators who are crossing the line during these matches as it's being webcast to people.

[needler420]

Read about two sentences then said who gives a crap.

[Manly Biceps]

So, here's my take on this. Girls who play video games are awesome.

However, there are a percentage of girls who play video games and get into geek stuff cynically, just to boost their attractiveness to guys. That bothers me just like d-bag guys that try to act sensitive by listening to Michael Buble or pretending to enjoy Twilight. I only have fake friendships with fake people. They don't deserve anything more.

(This is the point where I probably need to remind everyone, once again, personal opinion, not an official Atlus stance.)

If you're a girl that likes playing video games, great! High five. I know a lot of girls that are into video games (yes, RPGs and FPS games, not just Farmville) and a large number who don't give a crap about them.

I don't honestly understand why any heterosexual male gamer would want to hassle women over liking video games. Having more women who are into the same stuff as you is unilaterally a GOOD thing. Maybe you're going to run into a girl who's better than you at a certain game. Deal with it like a normal person. Either get better at the game until you can beat them, or accept that they're better than you.

[moonkist]

Man, I'm lucky I don't hear half of the crap in these articles here.

As a girl who started playing video games as a child, I remember being embarrassed to say that I enjoyed the activity. A lot of it had to do with the stigma against girls who played video games and got teased for it at school. I also remember not feeling normal because of a few television shows, where the girls would always be on the phone and the boys would be playing on their consoles in their room.

Safe to say, I grew out of this. My sister, while she waited with me at the bus stop, told me not to give a single damn about what they think. And things must have changed by then, because when I openly said I played video games in fifth grade, this one boy engaged me in enthusiastic conversation every morning. The other boy at my table did too and I was never harassed in my school years again.

I still deal with idiots on occasion, from events and the whatnot, who make blatant attempts to piss me off, but I just can't find it in myself to care. However, in the article that Evilkinggumby posted, the language they use is a matter of respect, not gaming. I fail to comprehend how they can use language like that.

A lot of my male friends don't care that a girl beat them. If anything, they take that as a challenge to get better. We had a discussion about this last year in my last English class, and a vast majority of the girls in that class played video games, more or so RPG's then anything.

I haven't played a game in a while where there was obvious sexism present, although I do wish there were more female protagonists.

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by moonkist

We had a discussion about this last year in my last English class, and a vast majority of the girls in that class played video games, more or so RPG's then anything.

That's actually really kool to hear. Did the teacher participate or was it more of chatter before class started? I'm curious what the teacher might have added to the conversation.

[moonkist]

Originally Posted by Evilkinggumby

That's actually really kool to hear. Did the teacher participate or was it more of chatter before class started? I'm curious what the teacher might have added to the conversation.

The teacher participated too. She, quite bashfully, admitted that she played video games when she wasn't grading papers. She added that most of the criticism she received when she was younger came mostly from her parents asking when she would "grow up", which is what my mother says to me most of the time.

She said it wasn't because of receiving harassment from boys that she never admitted playing video games to others, but from the social awkwardness that came of it from the other females she associated with. She wanted to talk about E3 and the next Halo or Final Fantasy, not about the latest soap opera news or anything.

[Kylaila]

Originally Posted by moonkist

...
She said it wasn't because of receiving harassment from boys that she never admitted playing video games to others, but from the social awkwardness that came of it from the other females she associated with. She wanted to talk about E3 and the next Halo or Final Fantasy, not about the latest soap opera news or anything.

That's more of a problem for me.
Well then, this one is in our time of feminism a hot topic, and as feminism itself - most of us women / girls have no problem at all with how things are now. At least that's how it's come to me up till now.

You could discuss wether the community or the games themselve "discriminate" against women .. but first off

It is a fact that there are more male than female gamer, generally. Depending on the genre, too.
Under these are, of course, gamer who .. don't do well .. and others who do. Logically, both genders involved.

Thus, in a community are usually going to be more male than female members .. and as we all know: people get more cocky in groups.
But that doesn't necessarily mean a "whole community" would be ..

Surely I have found a few idiots claiming women couldn't game or something of that sort, but as it is - surprisingly .. - those usually are awfully bad "..gamers" themselves.
Some who were annoyed, because I were better than them .. and even someone who was utterly perturbed as he realized I was girl at that (actually more funny than anything else )..
and who couldn't believe me being younger than him (kept pestering me for a week to tell him my real age .. ah, sweet memories)
or others asking as the first question online wether I'm female, or other trying to hit on somebody whos gender they don't know (funny thing if the female character turns out to be a guy), but that's a real minority. Of course, the minority of idiots gets more attention than rest of peaceful gamers, but idiots are found everywhere. It would be utterly pointless to blame games for that.

The majority appreciated female gamers, and as it was said before "gamers are gamers"
You often play with people not knowing their gender .. and really, it doesn't matter when you start playing and it matters even less afterwards.


For games themselves .. why would games, who are played mainly by guys, have to have "female-friendly" extras?
..unless you are talking about the abomination of games like "wii fitness" or "games" involving raising horses ect. (no offense to anyone who likes them, just my personal reference)

Furthermore, having a male protagonist doesn't make much of a difference when playing .. at least not for me.
Dirty jokes ect. may attract more guys than girls, but I myself don't mind them as long as they don't interrupt with the story.
And - believe it or not - I can laugh about most of them. (hell, why shouldn't I?)

I don't see any reason to change the majority of games, especially not rpgs. Elaborated characters and a beautiful story don't need more to appeal to both men and women alike.

The actualy problem for me would not be bickering in a community, but the general disgust for video games.
It's a major flaw to play games of any sort. Hanging all day in facebook (which I dare to not partcipate in) is perfectly fine, but playing a game - whatever genre it might be - is a sickness.
Most usually assume you are addicted at that.
People may talk about tolerance all day, but tolerance involves more than "discrimating against females" or origin.
Interests would fall under the same category, but well .. would

Ironically, on a "tolerance" day of our school, a teacher complained about all those "video game nerds", claiming they'd be all addicted anyway and they could be running amok.
(oh yeah, it started with a student helping out to present a film via pc)

I hopefully don't have to explain why to laugh at the amok part.

"Gamer Girls" .. there are just a few who want make a fuss out of it. I have never had any problems with major harassement, nor any intolerance of male gamer.
"Gamer is gamer", that's all.

[iammako3]

My family had a Commodore 64 when I was 3 or so, and ever since then I've been a gamer! I got lucky growing up in that I never got teased for playing games (liking anime in the late 90s got me teased, but not games), and my best friend (also a girl) was into video games as well. So being a "girl gamer" wasn't a weird or abnormal thing in my eyes.

Fanservice and stuff like that doesn't bother me -- it's actually kind of amusing. ^_^ I display my Catherine pillow case proudly (funny story: my boyfriend's friend saw the pillow case at our apartment and said, sarcastically, "Oh, I bet your girlfriend loves that", to which my bf responded "Actually, it's hers". Blew that guy's mind, lol).

I'm kinda "meh" on anyone (boy or girl) who claims themselves to be a gamer when all they play are facebook/cell phone games, so articles that mix those girl gamers up with regular girl gamers annoy me as they paint an unfair picture of female gamers.

As for Atlus games in particular. . . well, they definitely bring in more female fanbase thanks to cool characters and good stories. A lot of females on the internet tend to draw fanart or write fanfic for games even if they don't play simply because they enjoy the characters or world. Now, some of these girls will play the games too, so in that case Atlus does help bring in more girl gamers (or gamer girls. . . or whatever the heck you wanna call them).

Aaaaaand I think that's enough from me. ^_~

[Leilee]

I know this is off topic slightly but I find it interesting that girls that game are getting into the spotlight further just as we have politicians in the US talk about women's access to contraception.

There is definitely a cultural divide here about gender. One thing sometimes just sets off something huge *can't think of the words, tirrrrrrrrrrrrred*

But anyway I am hoping with both issues that we close the gender gap issues a little.

[Kylaila]

Originally Posted by iammako3

..
I'm kinda "meh" on anyone (boy or girl) who claims themselves to be a gamer when all they play are facebook/cell phone games, so articles that mix those girl gamers up with regular girl gamers annoy me as they paint an unfair picture of female gamers.
...
As for Atlus games in particular. . . well, they definitely bring in more female fanbase thanks to cool characters and good stories.

Oh yeah, totally forgot to mention these kind of "gamer" .. I agree.
(it's also hilarious to see people (e.g.) proudly showing off their Ivysaur .. those are real, hard boiled gamers.)

And one last hurray for Atlus

Originally Posted by Leilee

I know this is off topic slightly but I find it interesting that girls that game are getting into the spotlight further just as we have politicians in the US talk about women's access to contraception.

There is definitely a cultural divide here about gender. One thing sometimes just sets off something huge *can't think of the words, tirrrrrrrrrrrrred*

But anyway I am hoping with both issues that we close the gender gap issues a little.

That's just how it is, now "horrible neverseen treament" of women suddenly pops up as a grave problem everywhere. TV and movies are much worse imo, but even so not worth enough to make a huge fuss.

But .. am I mistaken or was the actual question wether anyone knew of some really good, popular gaming sites that are directed at, or sensitive to, girl gamers?
*caugh*
Nevermind.

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by Kylaila

But .. am I mistaken or was the actual question wether anyone knew of some really good, popular gaming sites that are directed at, or sensitive to, girl gamers?
*caugh*
Nevermind.

That was one of the many questions I asked, and I did say I was kool with related discussions. Strangely, no one has actually mentioned anything in regards to THAT question.. which worries me a bit.

In regards to the news media jumping on the whole contraception/Rush Limbaugh thing, I am going to say that may have brought some of these articles writers to want to feature their stories, but it doesn't change the original facts of the original events. I.e. people were still being sexist and abusive prior to that tv story, and as was mentioned, this kind of stuff has been going on all along but hadn't been sensationalized by the media to draw further attention to it. Trying to say that all this attention is because of a snowball-effect from one over-broadcast story is to say none of this is a real issue and if that one story was never so popularized everyone wouldn't care... Which doesn't negate the fact that these issues exist and there are people who are dealing with this problem daily.

I do like the fact some of this discussion has brought up that a number of women have not had an issue with guys hating on them for being gamers, but for other women, or in general society, for being GAMERS. Nice double whammy for girls that helps me to understand why the gamer society(and thus marketing/artistic direction) is male-centric. Girls are going to be possibly ostracized for gaming by their friends and family, and then if they continue, they may be harassed, insulted, and offended by the gaming culture itself. It's like almost every force possible is trying to keep them away from the subculture. And yet, here we are, a world where there are women gaming and doing it their way.

To a degree, this all reminds me of women getting into sports.. Or the military. It was an uphill climb, and nowadays people perceive the idea as pretty commonplace and "they got what they wanted, it's a non issue" but I tend to think there is still a lot of resistance and inequality in both arenas.

In terms of other companies, does anyone think some of the changes in story and gameplay reflect a sensitivity towards female gamers? Say, with Square/Enix and the FF games. I was surprised when they moved towards more of a "love and relationship" focus in FF8 and continued it to varying degree's with all their following games(and even in a number of other FF-esque projects). Or the upcoming re-introduction to Tomb Raider where she is less buxom and more realistically detailed? The heavy inclusion of women sidekicks in Uncharted, the possibility of Female Shepherd in Mass effect games and the inclusion of numerous squad mates that were strong women(or even the fact most of the human guys were built handsome and svelt).

Are games shifting to give women a reason to stop and stare and want to play? And what companies seem to endorse or promote this?

[Camanche]

Hey, let's just start calling anyone who plays video games and indentifies themself as part of that culture 'gamers' for starters. The more we start making a big deal over a person's gender, or even pointing it out, the more we are opening up the can of sexist worms that can, and likely will come up anywhere (not just in gaming). It shows an extreme amount of insecurity to treat someone online, of all places, poorly because of their gender. Do people expect special treatment and have a sense of entitlement because of their gender? Frequently, yes, but it's on both sides of the spectrum.

I have been on gaming forums since I was 11. I had screen names that made people assume I was male or simply unsure. If someone treated me poorly or differently on finding out that I was female, then they were just another discriminatory, useless jackoff. The same goes for females who attack men who haven't done anything over stereotypes. I do believe there is more of a pushback and 'tits of gtfo' attitude that women face. But I also think if more time was spent gaming and discussing games and less about what's between our legs and why that's such a big bloody deal, then maybe there will be less immature argueing and "omg sexist!" eruptions over all this crud. T_T

I also think it's silly to presume that all female gamers will more likely gravitate towards certain types of games and can't possibly enjoy the same games that men love. Just make good games darn it!

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by Camanche

I also think it's silly to presume that all female gamers will more likely gravitate towards certain types of games and can't possibly enjoy the same games that men love. Just make good games darn it!

You are right, it is silly. But despite being silly, I am curious if people are noticing this is what developers are doing more and more?

I kind of understand your point, Camanche, if we don't make the issue an issue (drawing attention to the disparity) then it will eventually NOT be an issue and become forgotten(or well.. a non-issue). But what I have seen so far is that when it was NOT so much a vocal issue, rather simmering under the surface where people were getting hurt and no one was saying anything or doing anything.. it wasn't getting any better; possibly worse.

What I was hoping for here was to discuss and analyze the idea about this topic and try to expand and contrast it's relevancy against the whole of the industry, against other sects of life, and pepper it with people's personal experiences as gamers. If you don't think this conversation should take place, you are welcome to walk away and not participate.

But at this point I am not going to go along with "ending the discussion" because talking about a problem makes it worse. I don't agree with that notion, especially in this area.

And I can't discuss the occurrences and details of how female gamers are treated, marketed to, abuse, offended or ignored without specifically identifying that particular group. As it is this is a fairly broad topic. There is certainly plenty of opportunity for discussing "The Gamer Life" or whatever experiences everyone has being a gamer, and I am sure it'll pop up here at some point (by myself or someone else if so inclined). But that is not the point here.

I am not trying to be a jerk or anything, as I do value your input and opinion. But I am trying to promote dialogue, not end it.

[moonkist]

Originally Posted by Evilkinggumby

In terms of other companies, does anyone think some of the changes in story and gameplay reflect a sensitivity towards female gamers?

Are games shifting to give women a reason to stop and stare and want to play? And what companies seem to endorse or promote this?

Totally. I mean, look at Team Ninja's Dead or Alive game. They've er... toned down some of the women, if not all. I'll admit it, I was turned off by Dead or Alive because every woman I saw had large breasts. It was clearly fan service, but I don't think you need big breasts to attract men to your game (maybe you do, depends on the man). Team Ninja says they're trying to be more realistic, which I take it that they're trying to be more sensitive.

I can relate more to a woman who doesn't have breasts that would probably break a regular woman's back. =/

Final Fantasy always has some sort of romance, implied or not. I don't think you have to be a woman to appreciate it. If anything, I'd like to see a Final Fantasy where there was no romance in more recent years.

[Lehst]

To be honest, I pretty much only have problems with sexist views in the gaming culture when I am online. I haven't had too many problems with a game's content in respect to gender, with the exception of the majority of date sims (Ren'Ai games) to be localized are heavily male targeted. But those games are not the kind of thing to be found in the regular retail market here (sadly), so whatever.

Atlus games in particular seem appealing to both genders. Unfortunately I still have little experience with games of the Megaten series (I'm so backlogged...) but I played a lot of Catherine and had absolutely no complaints. I was just so happy to have a game that had an emphasis on character interaction with multiple endings... no not just endings, more like the story changed the along the way like in a "choose your own adventure" book. That sort of gameplay always struck me as more female-oriented, because I grew up in an environment where most boys play FPS's and Mortal Kombat (the bloodier the better). Hmm, same goes for Persona 3 and it's social links.

Oh, and the fact that you play as a male character in most of the Megaten games is fine with me, but that could be because I've been conditioned to accept being a male hero. I know as a small child I would ALWAYS would pick Chun Li or Princess Peach in games simply for the fact they were girls, and they were cute, and that's what I wanted to be. It felt better when I played as female hero because I felt I could connect to the character. And when I would win as said character, it felt more awesome. But anyways, at least some (or most?) of the Megaten protagonists are silent so that's likely an answer to making the character personality (or lack thereof) fit any player, although it can be a bit bland.

But as for the online gaming community... well, I'll be blunt. "A person is smart, but people are dumb." It's so quick and easy to speak your mind online, that many people just blurt out their opinions without doing research or actively try to be jerks because they think its funny. That's how the internet is, and we all know it. But it's a big reason why I'm cautious about reading and posting in forums, because all this sexism kind of messes with my own opinions. The idea that its so weird or novel for a girl to be a gamer nerd/geek/dork just kind of saturates the content people post in a negative way. For us regular 'girls that play video games' we want to be recognized for our gender so that games get published with more appealing content to us, but we also want our gender to be irrelevant thanks to low-quality fashion games making up a large percentage of the very female-targeted games (although as the years go by, I personally have found more "girly" games that are worthwhile than in the past). It'd be nice if it wasn't so hard to find middle ground in a game's content, since targeting gender-stereotypes is a legitimate marketing tactic in every product known to man.

When I'm online looking for a good gaming website or just surfing for specific information, I really like sites that just present the information for what it is. Really, if people didn't need to feed their egos, the gaming community would be better for it. We don't need macho-types that compete to either be the biggest jerk, nor elitists that go off on newbies at the drop of a hat, nor girls that boast about being into games despite the fact that they are girls. Even I get a little sucked in when talking to clerks at Gamestop- I inherently feel this need to prove that I'm a legitimate gamer, so if we have a conversation (usually started by my boyfriend) I try to pipe up with relevant knowledge whenever I can, you know, if it's a game I care about. Guess I can't help wanting to be validated, but I don't want to stand out.

(Ah, and yes... this is my first post on Atlus forums. Please forgive the length... I'm sure most of you won't read it since it's so ridiculously long... oh well.)

[Evilkinggumby]

Thank you lehst. That was a hell of a lot of great insight and I appreciate you registering and piping up to give it. There are folk who will read this as anyone whos' crazy enough to dive into a heady conversation with my name attached knows there's going to be text walls a goin up.

Hope you stick around and toss your input on a lot of the other threads!

-ekg