Persona 3 Portable MCs should be added to console version

[Crok425]

Originally Posted by Inzaghi

Eh, no one's in trouble here. I would say only that if you prefer that you prefer the female P3 protagonist's route to the male's (surprising no one, I also don't subscribe to the notion that they have "canon" names), you're free to say that's what "really" happened if you want. After all, it was in a game made by Atlus, not some random player's fanfic.

Now, there's no denying that Persona 4 (glossing over the fact that it was made before P3P's female route was an option) takes a definite stance on the protagonist's gender. But rather than say "and that means P3 definitely canonically starred a male, case closed," I see it as meaning that Persona 4 is a continuation of the version of P3 where the protagonist was male.

"That's a lame cop-out!" you might protest, but it's not even the first time this would be true in the Megami Tensei franchise! Official timelines published a few years ago show that SMT If...., and by extension the Persona series itself, are an offshoot timeline of the original Shin Megami Tensei where Tokyo was not destroyed by ICBMs, rather than the version where it was, which was continued in SMT II. Which is "canon"? Was Tokyo nuked or not? Well, both sort of happened, and we've seen the fallout (yuk yuk) of both possibilities.

So just because we've only been shown the continuing events of one possibility for P3P doesn't mean the other didn't happen; only that as of now, it rests as its own discrete timeline. But it's none the less valid for that, I think.

It's true. Yet, Atlus made one protagonist for P3, which is the male one. They never thought of how they were going to get more popular because of this particular game. I think, if Persona 3 could've never got popular, ther would be probably no P3P and no female MC. Besides, the game itselfs tells that ''If you want a story that goes the same as the original Persona 3, play as the male protagonist'' didn't it?.

Shin Megami Tensei If... is in a alternate reality of the original SMT. From there, the Persona series starts, but as we saw, we still haven't seen anything that followed the female's route in P3P... not even ''The Answer'' chapter (despite the limited size of a normal UMD) and it seems that we will not get a thing like this in The Golden ''In the end of the world there was one person...
-Answer Margaret:
Was it a boy?
Was it a girl? <<<
Ah, yes, a red haired girl...''
Was it a boy? <<<
Ah, yes, a blue haired boy...''
It would seem kind of pointless... but it's a fact that the male protagonist's route is the one that follows the series and not the female's.

[Latorn]

Does it even matter if a character is canon or not? It wouldn't hurt the story to have a playable character added to versus and arcade mode.

And for all this talk of canon, has Atlus even officially announced what is and isn't canon? We can assume the male MC is canon, but it is not fact, because it has not been official confirmed (to my knowledge).

Honestly though, I don't really care for this canon business, I just care about my own playthrough; as far as I'm concerned Yu's real name is Latorn =P

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Latorn

Does it even matter if a character is canon or not? It wouldn't hurt the story to have a playable character added to versus and arcade mode.

And for all this talk of canon, has Atlus even officially announced what is and isn't canon? We can assume the male MC is canon, but it is not fact, because it has not been official confirmed (to my knowledge).

Honestly though, I don't really care for this canon business, I just care about my own playthrough; as far as I'm concerned Yu's real name is Latorn =P

Something that made me mad about Arena is that they gave my MC a name (Same for Growlanser 2 where the MC of the Original (Player) got a name (Carmaine)).

You need a canon to make a continuation of the series (Even Mass Effect that there was supposed to never have a cannon history falls off with Mass Effect 3). Hamuko will never appear since persona 4 and the asnwer was ATLUS way to confirm that the MC is male.

[Yukichin]

Originally Posted by Latorn

This is completely true, so why even bring up the fact that JRPGs emphasize observing a story rather than immersion when the game we're discussing- Persona 3/4 -clearly doesn't fit this standard JRPG formula?

Eh? Unless I'm misinterpreting this you're saying WRPGs have less of a focus on plot and character development? I know Bioware games were already mentioned in this thread, so hopefully there's no need to bring up KoTOR, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age (oh wait, I just brought them up =P) which are WRPGs with clear focus on plot and character development XD.

Again: generally. Persona 4 has much more emphasis on story and plot than, say, Skyrim, and you don't have as much control over yourself and your actions as, say, Mass Effect.

And for all this talk of canon, has Atlus even officially announced what is and isn't canon? We can assume the male MC is canon, but it is not fact, because it has not been official confirmed (to my knowledge).

The universe in which Persona 4 takes place in states that the protagonist from 3 is male. In an alternate universe--perhaps connected by the Amala Network from Nocturne--the protagonist could have been female, but in the exact case of Persona 4, he is male.

That's also the problem with putting the female protagonist of 3 into Arena. Providing it does not contradict anything in Persona 4, we should probably assume that it's canon because it's not stated to be otherwise.

[Onion of Mystery]

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

You need a canon to make a continuation of the series (Even Mass Effect that there was supposed to never have a cannon history falls off with Mass Effect 3). Hamuko will never appear since persona 4 and the asnwer was ATLUS way to confirm that the MC is male.

You are aware that FES and P4 both were developed and came out long before P3P did, right? The question of P3's gender wouldn't have come up.

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Onion of Mystery

You are aware that FES and P4 both were developed and came out long before P3P did, right? The question of P3's gender wouldn't have come up.

As of late those games are continuations of the persona series so as long as we dont see Fes the Answer portable or the Golden state otherwise then the current canon is the male MC.

What i meant before was that when a game have a direct sequel of a series Lets say silent hill 3 where we know what happen at the end of the prequel wich have multiple endings then there is no doubt that the developers said "here is the true canon ending enjoy it".

[Latorn]

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

As of late those games are continuations of the persona series so as long as we dont see Fes the Answer portable or the Golden state otherwise then the current canon is the male MC.

What i meant before was that when a game have a direct sequel of a series Lets say silent hill 3 where we know what happen at the end of the prequel wich have multiple endings then there is no doubt that the developers said "here is the true canon ending enjoy it".

Aye, but what I think Onion's arguing is that the canon was never in question until the release of P3P. So although FES and P4 were considered canon, it is unknown if they still are.

Even though it is obviously most likely that Male MC is canon, it has not been confirmed and is now in question.

Yet, as I said before, I doubt whether the character is canon or not actually matters if they're just DLC put in for arcade and versus mode.

[kratoscar2008]

Its just a matter of time then until ATLUS folks confirms the series real cannon.

The Golden could have the answer right now.

[Evilkinggumby]

Wow.. I can honestly say I have NEVER heard mention of the idea of canon with Silent hill before. I'm not sure I can stop laughing.

Didn't an article that was released showing off alternate outfit color schemes help to flesh out some of this? I though they had a color scheme to make Yu look sort of like the male MC from p3? If they did an alternate color for another character to resemble the femc then poof... you got yer two alternates for those who gotta have it...

Personally, the idea of arguing canon when you are talking about a popular series that has been repeatedly reaped for cash and exposure at every turn is pointless. Are you going to also make sure that the canon from arena matches up with the p3 cell phone game? And the card game? Best make sure every aspect is still 100% in line!!!

C'mon. P3P was a chance for Atlus to re-release the game, offer a few new features that a lot of gamers wanted, and tweak the story in a way that gave long time fans a chance at something fresh and new. Sounds like money to me... The upcoming p4 games (arena and golden) are more iterations of this idea.

I think in development they're trying to stick to some consistency more then wrought iron canon. And that is more of a thumbrule then a law. Profit is the only law in the biz.

[Inzaghi]

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

Its just a matter of time then until ATLUS folks confirms the series real cannon.

The Golden could have the answer right now.

I feel like nothing I said upthread with respect to the idea of "real canon" in a game that involves player choice sunk in.

So let me try again, from a different angle. This Penny Arcade strip is what debates on canon used to be about. The idea was that for a series with intense fandom like Star Wars, you had the original movies, and then the novelizations of the movies, and then the supplementary material like the Zahn novels, and down the line to fanfiction. Each progressive step got further away from "canon," i.e. the events found in the source material of the films. If you wrote a fanfic in 1985 about Leia leaving Han for Lando and the adventures of the children they had together, there was nothing (except maybe common sense) to say it didn't happen--until Zahn's version of events with an official imprimatur was released. Now your fanfic was distinctly non-canon.

That's not what's going on in P3P, or in the Mass Effect games you mentioned. There are things that happen in the Mass Effect story that are canon--Saren backstabbing Nihlus on Eden Prime and activating the beacon, for instance--and there are things that are merely default choices. But just because starting Mass Effect 2 without importing any data from the first game means that, among other things, the Council was sacrificed doesn't mean that that's the "canon" outcome. It just means that when the time came and there was no previous decision made, Bioware had to set the flag to one value or the other. A default had to be chosen for technical reasons, but since the hook of the series is that the decisions the player makes have weight that's carried throughout the storyline, it would be self-defeating to call that default "canon" and invalidate the story the player has become invested in shaping.

A similar thing is going on in P3P, although it's a little weirder because the post-P3 games that reference the protagonist's gender were made before anyone considered giving the player a choice. All the same, if you look back at the original debates on canon and what they dealt with, you now have an "original source material" (P3P) where two incompatible canons are simultaneously true and supported equally within the source.

So, going back to what I said before, I don't think it's true that P3P has one canon path and one non-canon path. I submit that P3P has two equally canon routes, one of which has been explored in further detail in The Answer and P4, and one of which hasn't, for obvious causal reasons.

[Crok425]

Originally Posted by Inzaghi

I feel like nothing I said upthread with respect to the idea of "real canon" in a game that involves player choice sunk in.

So let me try again, from a different angle. This Penny Arcade strip is what debates on canon used to be about. The idea was that for a series with intense fandom like Star Wars, you had the original movies, and then the novelizations of the movies, and then the supplementary material like the Zahn novels, and down the line to fanfiction. Each progressive step got further away from "canon," i.e. the events found in the source material of the films. If you wrote a fanfic in 1985 about Leia leaving Han for Lando and the adventures of the children they had together, there was nothing (except maybe common sense) to say it didn't happen--until Zahn's version of events with an official imprimatur was released. Now your fanfic was distinctly non-canon.

That's not what's going on in P3P, or in the Mass Effect games you mentioned. There are things that happen in the Mass Effect story that are canon--Saren backstabbing Nihlus on Eden Prime and activating the beacon, for instance--and there are things that are merely default choices. But just because starting Mass Effect 2 without importing any data from the first game means that, among other things, the Council was sacrificed doesn't mean that that's the "canon" outcome. It just means that when the time came and there was no previous decision made, Bioware had to set the flag to one value or the other. A default had to be chosen for technical reasons, but since the hook of the series is that the decisions the player makes have weight that's carried throughout the storyline, it would be self-defeating to call that default "canon" and invalidate the story the player has become invested in shaping.

A similar thing is going on in P3P, although it's a little weirder because the post-P3 games that reference the protagonist's gender were made before anyone considered giving the player a choice. All the same, if you look back at the original debates on canon and what they dealt with, you now have an "original source material" (P3P) where two incompatible canons are simultaneously true and supported equally within the source.

So, going back to what I said before, I don't think it's true that P3P has one canon path and one non-canon path. I submit that P3P has two equally canon routes, one of which has been explored in further detail in The Answer and P4, and one of which hasn't, for obvious causal reasons.

We're not talking about if P3P has one canon route, we're talking that in the current timeline of the Persona games follows the male's route instead of the female's. That's why we're saying that the male's route is canon, because Persona is following that timeline instead of the other. Both may be canon, but the current timeline tells that the male's route is canon in the series.
I realize that when we defeat Margaret in P4, she tells us about P3 MC actions, and of course, that was made before P3P. But in the case of Persona 4: Arena, it would be pointless to change that timeline so it can match the female's route instead of the male's. I know I said that the female's route isn't canon and it was just a side-story, which kinda still makes it true, but I take back the part of non-canon. Now what I want to say is that now the timeline of Persona follows like this (exception of P2, those doesn't have multiple endings, but whatever):

Persona 1 - Good Ending, Persona 2 IS, Persona 2 EP, Persona 3 - Good Ending (at that time, only one protagonist and male) and Persona 4 - True Ending, Persona 4: Arena - ???

That's what I meant about the timeline. You can count the first two Persona games out, but it doesn't matter. I state again that it would be pointless to change the current storyline of the timeline the Persona series is following, which is the male one.

[Yukichin]

Inzaghi, I think we're operating off of different definitions of "canon". If the entire rest of the series goes off of one ending/route (in this case, male MC), then that's what's canon, and the other routes (female MC) would be alternate-universe fare. It could be canon within that alternate universe, but the timeline that the games follow is what I've seen generally accepted as canon and that is what I go by. Saying "oh, they're both canon just in different universes" kind of reads like the antithesis of "canon" to me.

Personally, the idea of arguing canon when you are talking about a popular series that has been repeatedly reaped for cash and exposure at every turn is pointless. Are you going to also make sure that the canon from arena matches up with the p3 cell phone game? And the card game? Best make sure every aspect is still 100% in line!!!

For one thing, the P3 cell phone game fleshes out Aigis more, if I remember correctly. That being said, those are more like side stories and are less generally held to canon because usually they are accepted as not being it. Arena, on the other hand, seems to be a full-on sequel despite being in a different genre. I could be wrong.

[Inzaghi]

Originally Posted by Yukichin

the timeline that the games follow is what I've seen generally accepted as canon and that is what I go by.

This is exactly my point, though. There is an entire game's worth of content, created by the same people who made the original, establishing the female protagonist. It's not a side story or a manga adaptation by a third party or a fanfic--you can buy Persona 3 Portable and play as a girl and that might be your sole way to experience the game.

My point this whole time is that I think what player choice in games does to the idea of canon is really interesting, and expressing a desire for the creators to step in and say "This is the version that actually happened" makes it substantially less so. Accept the mystery!

[Syra]

I'm siding with Inzaghi on this. If you take one timeline, one possibility of all player choice and say it's the singular example of canon, then all other options are meaningless. You might as well not have bad endings, they're wasted development time and disk space where they could have put a "game over" screen.

You can be overly linear if you want, but the brilliance of player choice in a medium like this is that canon ceases to be a straight line, and becomes a branching series of tangent timelines. Some of these timelines may continue in sequels, and some may not, but that doesn't remove those that die off from being canon, they are just possibilities which have not been explored further. They are still valid, they still happened, they just didn't happen from the perspective the sequel is viewing the story from.

Trying to say that the sequel's perspective is the only type of canon possible is basically just negating the choices entirely. It might be abstract to remove the linearity, and singular nature of canon, but if you care, in any respect, about player choice in games, you absolutely must consider the concept of alternate timelines existing in the same canonical universe. Heck, just look at the Zelda timeline if you need proof of this existing in games.

[kratoscar2008]

My life would be easier if i could accept what Sirya and Inzagui thinks.

But the developers have the last word about this and if they say that the MC is male in the continuation then i will take that as "fact".

Like Arena gives the MC a name. Now is pointless to keep naming him with my name or Souji since ATLUS now says that the game is canon then he is Yu (Player choice this time nullified). If only were the anime i wouldnt mind (Like most VN anime adaptations where the MC has a name and Face) but now that the Game the original media says that he (MC) is yu then whatever he says will mostly not resemble any response i made him say in the original PS2.

[Inzaghi]

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

Like Arena gives the MC a name. Now is pointless to keep naming him with my name or Souji since ATLUS now says that the game is canon then he is Yu (Player choice this time nullified). If only were the anime i wouldnt mind (Like most VN anime adaptations where the MC has a name and Face) but now that the Game the original media says that he (MC) is yu then whatever he says will mostly not resemble any response i made him say in the original PS2.

Or... and I'm just saying here... you could not think that. It's up to you. Personally, I wouldn't let hand-wringing over canon get in the way of what I wanted to choose in a game that offered me the choice. But if you'd rather be disappointed, that's your business, I suppose.

[Kenji]

Y'know, I remember writing a whole bunch of crap on this very subject, awhile ago. It's probably stuck somewhere in the back pages of this forum...

EDIT: Right, here. Maybe there's a few others floating around, and maybe some of those posts need updating, but I still operate under the general theory.

[Crok425]

Originally Posted by Inzaghi

Or... and I'm just saying here... you could not think that. It's up to you. Personally, I wouldn't let hand-wringing over canon get in the way of what I wanted to choose in a game that offered me the choice. But if you'd rather be disappointed, that's your business, I suppose.

Better yet... why don't we all finish this meaningless discussion and get over it? We're not getting anywhere with this. One is getting all ''The current timeline is the male's'', others go ''No, that's the female'', others ''both are''. Really... it's not getting anywhere. *Sigh*

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Crok425

Better yet... why don't we all finish this meaningless discussion and get over it? We're not getting anywhere with this. One is getting all ''The current timeline is the male's'', others go ''No, that's the female'', others ''both are''. Really... it's not getting anywhere. *Sigh*

Seems good to me. So lets just wait for the announcement of the playable DLC characters. As i said before it would be cool the appeareance of Maya and Tatsuya in ARENA.

[Crok425]

It would be really cool actually ^^. I want, at least, the other Persona protagonists in this one ^^, Tatsuya most of all, since he's my favorie Persona protagonist.

And damn... August is surely is going to be long to wait.

[Ce Ilhuicamina]

I always considered both Main characters "Canon" although living in parallel worlds, somehow simmilar to DC Comics with all their "Elseworld" stories.

Even so I think Arena is most likely to follow the male main character's story since he was mentioned in P4.

On a personal note I love the Female Main Character and prefer her over the blue haired kid, I had a blast playing with her and I hope we get to see her again someday (I would kill for a figurine or action figure of her )

[Raed]

Well all that we can do is wait for the announcement.I still can't believe that this game is actually a canon. I mean how would the story go,why would they actually fight on another and why is Teddy hosting the event?
If we find answers to those questions,then there is a great chance we would be able to conclude why the MC should be added & why they shouldn't.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

My life would be easier if i could accept what Sirya and Inzagui thinks.

But the developers have the last word about this and if they say that the MC is male in the continuation then i will take that as "fact".

Like Arena gives the MC a name. Now is pointless to keep naming him with my name or Souji since ATLUS now says that the game is canon then he is Yu (Player choice this time nullified). If only were the anime i wouldnt mind (Like most VN anime adaptations where the MC has a name and Face) but now that the Game the original media says that he (MC) is yu then whatever he says will mostly not resemble any response i made him say in the original PS2.

The name "Yu" is a pun for "you", at least--it's not really any different than Hitoshura/Demi-Fiend, which is obviously not his real name, even if Hitoshura has that ring to it and most fans use that name.

I would literally cry if Tatsuya was DLC, but I'm not hoping for it since it's a long shot. I'm going to assume DLC don't have to be canon-appropriate, and if so, Adachi would be a cool choice.

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The name "Yu" is a pun for "you", at least--it's not really any different than Hitoshura/Demi-Fiend, which is obviously not his real name, even if Hitoshura has that ring to it and most fans use that name.

I would literally cry if Tatsuya was DLC, but I'm not hoping for it since it's a long shot. I'm going to assume DLC don't have to be canon-appropriate, and if so, Adachi would be a cool choice.

Yes adachi would be cool, if i remember correctly the P4 MC name basicaly translate as "God of Thunder" so i dont think they have put Yu from meaning "You".

Its more unlikely that Tatsuya or Maya made an appereance but still can Happen.

[Oberon]

Oh, huh, I'd never heard of the god of thunder bit. I remember when the name from the anime came out, people pointed out the Yu=you thing. I honestly have trouble connecting even the names I give them to the MCs.. I prefer when they come with names myself XD

Actually, Tatsuya and/or Maya would make more sense than other random Megaten main characters. P1 and P2 take place in the same universe, and P3 mentioned how a couple of the characters were doing on TV. So maybe. I won't hold out hope though.

[Crok425]

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

Yes adachi would be cool, if i remember correctly the P4 MC name basicaly translate as "God of Thunder" so i dont think they have put Yu from meaning "You".

Its more unlikely that Tatsuya or Maya made an appereance but still can Happen.

I think Yu Narukami means ''Silent God of Thunder'' , good one ATLUS.

[EightBitRed]

You said yourself Arena is cannon. as much as i would like Male MC or Female MC just the fact that the history wouldnt allow it is enough to kill that dream.

What im concerned is the precense of aigis i dont think she will participate in arena just for the fun so maybe just Maybe there is a chance that we will see P3 MC (male not female since female MC is not cannon) and that will be thanks to aigis.

Fem Mc is not even canon to the series, she just an alternate universe counter-part of a "What if".

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by EightBitRed

Fem Mc is not even canon to the series, she just an alternate universe counter-part of a "What if".

Exactly. Is like saying SMT If is canon too if persona revelations clarify that the MC is a she not a he.

[vany]

Lighten up guys, we girls want a Female Character to play as so at least let us hope. Only fanboys take cannon seriously.

[Crok425]

Originally Posted by vany

Lighten up guys, we girls want a Female Character to play as so at least let us hope. Only fanboys take cannon seriously.

I take it seriously for example .
In any case, it doesn't matter who is cannon, the matter is that the current storyline Persona is taking it's the male one... it's different in a manner... But of course, since this is a fighting game, it doesn't matter if Atlus breaks the fourth wall, you can make any character fight with anyone, for example, in BlazBlue you can make Ragna and Makoto fight each other even though they never met in the story, so making Hamuko a DLC or unlockable (god I hope the important content, like characters, are unlockable... can't do much with DLC's T-T) wouldn't be bad or impossible... yet again, I hope they put Minato in the game