Any word if this is Dual Audio like BlazBlue or...

[Hitoshura]

Originally Posted by Blacksmoke

Including dual audio is propagating ignorance? How exactly?

Because English dubs are fine. The only reason people don't like English dubs is because they go into it with incredible, ridiculous, childish bias. These are the sort of people that have no honest desire to learn the Japanese language, yet they're going to whine up and down that English dubs make their ears bleed, and their precious Japanese voices are infinitely superior. I dodged the bullet with that one really, because I'm highly susceptible to the opinions of others and it takes me awhile to figure out my own, and when I first got into anime, my friend constantly told me that English dubs were terrible and to only watch the Japanese voices. Then, I started actually y'know, LISTENING to these English dubs with as little bias as possible, and going "what the hell? These are fine. These actors display a pretty great representation of these characters. What is wrong with people?" And then it hit me: Ignorance. Bias. These people aren't actually listening to these dubs, they're "listening" to them with the idea that they're "bad" in the first place, and receiving an incredibly skewed perception. Giving in to their ignorance and childishness (supplying dual audio) is only going to pervade said ignorance further. However, I believe that through continued forced exposure to English dubs that are actually good (which really, is about 90% of them, not EVERY game is Chaos Wars or Arc Rise Fantasia guys.) these strange individuals will finally start looking at English dubs from an unbiased and mature point of view. That, or they'll get off their asses and start learning Japanese so they can import for their precious Japanese voices.

[Senel K.]

Originally Posted by Hitoshura

snip

You, sir, are my hero. That's the main reason why I personally don't want a Japanese dub in this game. If people want Japanese audio so badly, they should import and learn the language.

Edit: Instead of crying out for 'dual audio' people should instead cry for 'no dubbing'

[Olethros]

I always love when Hito is around. It gives me a little time off from being the voice of reason and logic regarding this issue.

[Glenburg89]

Hito, you speak so much truth and it's awesome!
I think some have come to believe if it's not original Japanese, it's not authentic. At the same time, the same people bashing English dubs are people who speak English.lol.
Also, the English voice actors at this day and age are household names and are VERY talented individuals.

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by Hitoshura

The only reason people don't like English dubs is because they go into it with incredible, ridiculous, childish bias.

I can agree to some degree with this idea. People walk into most situations with some type of bias on their hip, that's just how life is. How BIG the bias is(and so how likely it affects their interpretation of something) is going to vary. So I don't think all dual audio PROMOTERS are following this so much as the upper echelon elitists that also feel like an original piece of artwork or creation shouldn't be sullied by someone else's hand. The difference between watching a lot of foreign cinema in their languages vs dubbed. Seeing a movie in it's original black and white vs a remake. They cringe at those that eat Taco Bell and say it's great mexican food. And hey, it's their prerogative to do so, as in some cases I think they're right in admonishing the changed product.

And it is a shame because sometimes that wall of bias can shut them out of really good work/stuff/experiences because it's not always a travesty.

Personally, my theory of why folk love their dual audio is one of the experience and ambiguity of subbed work. It is also akin to what I just explained, that what they experience has been sullied to some degree from its original source material and so the viewer is stuck with a slightly tainted version.

On the one hand you have the audio completely reworked in english, a language the viewer has a keen natural grasp of. They understand the nuances, subtleties and general rules as they apply to speech. So if the actor is trying to convey emotion, the viewer is able to hear and understand that on a 1:1 basis. There is no ambiguity (I'm oversimplifying a bit here, so don't freak out) and so it also means there is a lot of room for critical judgement and disapproval. The viewer has to accept what was said, how it was said, is what it is and that's really all there is to it. They can only interpret the actors acting and little else.

On the other side, for subb'ed work, you are receiving 2 different "signals" from the actor/character. One if the text itself, which is read and internally "acted out" however fast/slow/emotional/stilted as the viewer wants. With no audio it is very easy to create a personality and complete interpretation of the character internally and make it your own. This alone gives the viewer a lot of carte blanche in making the experience what THEY want it to be. It is also a scapegoat for blame as the viewer can call "bad translation" for portions of dialogue where the verbal Japanese and English text don't see to be what the viewer wants them to be.

Then add to it the Japanese language, (and to be clear, I am going under the premise the viewer DOES NOT understand Japanese really at all), a language that is , pardon the term, unintelligible to the viewer. It is words and phrases that are not only meaningless, but also given in a sentence structure and general usage that is not verbatim to the text that is given because of how Japanese language is based. So the subtle nuances, pauses, emphasis on certain words and aspects of what is said is not even necessarily lining up with what is being read and "acted" in the viewers mind as they watch it. The voice acting, effectively, becomes an "overall tone" to the actor rather than a 1:1 understanding. SO the viewer mentally fills in the gaps between what is heard and what is read/internally heard and so they end up with whatever they want to end up with.

Also, since it is a more opaque view of the voice acting, it is harder to be critical and cite what is wrong with the actor/actress aside from if they have an annoying voice(personally the only time i see people criticize the original Japanese audio is because OMG i hate his voice actor it's so shrill and annoying!!). So again, if there is issue with the dialogue it is usually thrown at the localization group or company doing the subs.

Or to simplify it even more.. it is the difference between reading this:

"The man smiled with a coy wickedness only an angel could see through."

and just being given this:



One is left entirely up to the minds eye(which is going to be infinitely better than anything a game or movie could hand you) and the other is a solid, tangible interpretation of it that you can't so much "create" as you can love or hate it.

I don't explain all that to call DA promoters and say they're wrong or bad or anything. It's just one more possibility as to why people can be so staunchly loyal to it and so ask/demand/scream for it in media.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by Blacksmoke

Not sure if they have graphic designers on staff, but they definitely didn't create the artwork in the book if that's what you're implying. It was the guys in Japan. Dual audio, too, would have to be programmed by the guys in Japan.

Graphic Design is not the same thing as Illustration. Two entirely different fields. To create an artbook, someone has to assemble it in an aesthetically pleasing fashion that effectively presents the content, and displays information. That is design. The artwork itself is illustration. You better believe Atlus USA has designers on staff, who do you think makes the cover art? Assembles the instruction manuals? The websites? Designers do that. You can't publish without designers, they're integral to the process.

Coders, however, are not. When you don't get source code, you've got nothing for programmers to do. So, Dual Audio becomes more difficult. For one, art assets are easier to come by because they're early work, the art teams are basically done long before the programming teams. Getting art assets for art books, or even soundtracks is actually a lot easier because of this. Now publishing often times has a time gap, so that isn't always as obvious as many times these artists move to new projects, but even then, finished assets are a lot easier to transfer over than ones that need work, which simply makes art books and soundtracks a lot easier than dual audio.

Add to this another issue you don't even seem to comprehend, legal issues. Voice actors and actresses have to give you the rights to use their likenesses. It's entirely possible their contract with Atlus Japan doesn't give permission to overseas distribution of said likeness, which would mean there would need to be further discussion with regards to that. This adds yet another hurdle that no one seems to understand, because I guess people think voice actors are robots and have no rights.

There is a significant money, time, and legal investment into dual audio, and while other things share some of these traits, none that you have listed are as severe. Art books need permission to use the assets, and you've got to design them and print them, but you also have a time gap between when the game gets translated, and when it gets printed due to sending it back to Japan for coding, so hey, that's time you can spend on an art book. Dual audio? Not so much. This is even more true due to the fact dual audio requires that significant investment not only of Atlus USA, but also of Atlus Japan, and this means both companies must be in agreement, and it should be obvious why that's a significant hurdle.

It's great when dual audio can happen, it's a nice bonus. However, if you consider it a requirement, or simply hate the English language, you're better off just learning Japanese and sticking to imports.


@EKG: This is why I find it funny when subtitle lovers criticize the English for being too exaggerated. Japanese voice work in anime and games is more often than not, exaggerated as all hell. The irony is so thick you can cut it. =D

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by Syra

@EKG: This is why I find it funny when subtitle lovers criticize the English for being too exaggerated. Japanese voice work in anime and games is more often than not, exaggerated as all hell. The irony is so thick you can cut it. =D

See that's why I am ok with English dubbed audio, I can understand and properly interpret it more accurately and directly. I still enjoy subbed work but I also recognize that the great efforts of the japanese voice actor/actress are lost to me.

[bahamut920]

Originally Posted by Evilkinggumby

With no audio it is very easy to create a personality and complete interpretation of the character internally and make it your own.

Personal example: in Devil Survivor, the first time you save Haru, one of the text options after she whispers to the MC that he has a "dangerous smell" is to say nothing to your friends, at which point Yuzu says something along the lines of "Oh, so it's a big secret, huh?"

When playing the original DS version, I interpreted the line as a bit sarcastic and teasing, perhaps because that's the way I myself would most likely have reacted in that situation (I'm a bit of a Deadpan Snarker in real life). In Overclocked, which has voice acting for the characters, the line was read a bit more on the hurt/angry side of things, which surprised me.

[Foobar]

Ten steps of DA threads:

1) Someone posts a thread begging for dual audio
2) "We'll see"
3) Often not plausible
4) Reasons given for why it isn't happening. It goes in one ear, out the other.
5) Beggers enter denial phase. Make up reasons in favor.
6) Beggers think dubs are "bad" like Cowboy Bebop's dub, a minority opinion.
7) Minds aren't changed, thread persists like a political debate. Kids get popcorn.
8 )Tempers run high. Thread closed. The galaxy is at peace.
9) Next game announced. Everyone is excited.
10) Return to #1, a collective sigh is heard. Captain Picard's palm finds his face.

[Onion of Mystery]

You don't understand, Shepard. We have these threads every game so that the cycle may continue and the forum is not destroyed by a sub/dub war that lasts forever. The best arguments from the previous cycle are preserved for use in the next.

[Foobar]

So does this thread get the Red, Green or Blue ending and weren't those all the endings JC Denton got, too?

Also, am I being indoctrinated?

[DarkRPGMaster]

Originally Posted by Onion of Mystery

You don't understand, Shepard. We have these threads every game so that the cycle may continue and the forum is not destroyed by a sub/dub war that lasts forever. The best arguments from the previous cycle are preserved for use in the next.

Originally Posted by Foobar

So does this thread get the Red, Green or Blue ending and weren't those all the endings JC Denton got, too?

Also, am I being indoctrinated?

Wait a minute, why are these here, this isn't the rig-ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.

[byno]

Originally Posted by Foobar

Ten steps of DA threads:

1) Someone posts a thread begging for dual audio
2) "We'll see"
3) Often not plausible
4) Reasons given for why it isn't happening. It goes in one ear, out the other.
5) Beggers enter denial phase. Make up reasons in favor.
6) Beggers think dubs are "bad" like Cowboy Bebop's dub, a minority opinion.
7) Minds aren't changed, thread persists like a political debate. Kids get popcorn.
8 )Tempers run high. Thread closed. The galaxy is at peace.
9) Next game announced. Everyone is excited.
10) Return to #1, a collective sigh is heard. Captain Picard's palm finds his face.

You forgot the bandwagon of haters using mob mentality.

[Yukichin]

Thank you, Syra. That's exactly what I was wanting to respond.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by byno

You forgot the bandwagon of haters using mob mentality.

I prefer red not because I'm totally against green, but because those that favor blue don't have humanity's best interests in mind even though they think they do. I also understand green may be dodgy when Star Children tell me about it.

It might look like a compromise, I did get some robots and aliens to stop fighting. One robot even gave it up like the T-800 to save us all. That doesn't mean that green loving robots and AIs are always good, just look at HAL, GLaDoS, the Mechon and HK-47. They're kinda scary.

Green can be good sometimes, but some humans also want more green when green happens and those doing more work only have so much green energy to release a game. You might think the Guardians will issue everyone a lantern so that you can recharge your ring every 24 hours rather than go back to Oa all the time, but they really do like you coming back to them and chanting the oath at the central power battery.

What was I talking about again?

[Olethros]

I love it! So far this has easily been the most entertaining DA thread we've yet had. My hope for the future is beginning to crawl out from under the ashes.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Originally Posted by Olethros

I love it! So far this has easily been the most entertaining DA thread we've yet had. My hope for the future is beginning to crawl out from under the ashes.

I believe this is the forecast whenever we see a DA thread.

[Senel K.]

So basically those asking for dual audio are going to get sorely disappointed? LOL

[byno]

Originally Posted by Foobar

What was I talking about again?

You were saying how you prefer one color over the others makes you a better person.

Originally Posted by Senel K.

So basically those asking for dual audio are going to get sorely disappointed? LOL

Even if there's a 1% chance, there's still a slight chance.

This topic like many others are just a reminder that some people would still like the option of DA. Just keeping the voice alive.

[Kylaila]

Originally Posted by byno

Even if there's a 1% chance, there's still a slight chance.

This topic like many others are just a reminder that some people would still like the option of DA. Just keeping the voice alive.

I think that's a good way of putting it.

I know being "the minority" makes you want to scream louder to make up for it, but it usually doesn't help the cause.

Personally, I think the dub is fairly well-done so I wouldn't mind, but having options always is a good thing.
Both saying "SUB IS BEST!" and "DUB IS BEST!" is just ridiculous, but it was explained really well already
I don't mind either way as long as the cast is good. Japanese voice actors usually exaggarate - but that also works in favor when the characters are supposed to be pretty extreme.
There are also (very) few voice actors I don't like for no reason at all (can't help it), so that sometimes gets a little annoying.

I think keeping arguing over something when the facts are already out doesn't help anyone, since it was about a simple question to begin with.

We'll just wait and see wether it comes with or without dual and keep looking forward to yet another awesome game. Which is what it will probably still remain even with "disliked" voice-actors
.. although we know what is more likely to happen.

(and wait for point 9) of our schedule )

[Onion of Mystery]

Originally Posted by Senel K.

So basically those asking for dual audio are going to get sorely disappointed? LOL

Basically, the answer to "Will we get dual audio?" is always "No, unless ___." It's not outside the realm of possibility (like asking if we'd start doing Esperanto dubs or something), but don't get your hopes up.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by Kylaila

I don't mind either way as long as the cast is good. Japanese voice actors usually exaggarate - but that also works in favor when the characters are supposed to be pretty extreme.

Don't mistake my saying that as a criticism of Japanese voice acting. It was a criticism of those who hate dubs without reason, and use that as an excuse. The fact is, if you're watching an animated show, or playing a video game, exaggeration is to be expected. It's part of the process. For one, you're having to act without the vast majority of communication, body language. So, exaggerating what you do have is kind of a given, you've got to put more expression into your words to get the same degree of emotion.

On top of this, when it comes to Japanese, it's not a very outwardly expressive language. Listen to people speaking it normally, it's pretty monotone at times, especially for English speakers like me who can easily miss the subtleties, so the added intensity and charm that the Japanese VA community uses often offsets this and adds more emotion into the language. Now, they do have a sort of formulaic manor of doing this, partly because that formula works at expressing different character types, but I gotta say, the lack of variety gets stale after a while, but that's another thing entirely.

Basically, exaggeration is a good thing when done well. I mean, you can't exactly say Mark Hamill was being subtle with his portrayal of the Joker, but it's brilliant because of how wild it sounds. Believe me, I've seen anime without a lot of exaggeration in the voices, and funny enough, those are the ones I almost always prefer the dub, mostly because I just can't catch the emotion anymore, my English speaking brain misses it.

[Kylaila]

Originally Posted by Syra

Don't mistake my saying that as a criticism of Japanese voice acting. It was a criticism of those who hate dubs without reason, and use that as an excuse.

Do not worry, I did not take it as such. I merely meant to add that on a side note,
but your mentioned points are quite accurate.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by byno

You were saying how you prefer one color over the others makes you a better person.

My color saves the future for humans. Green is the next best choice so long as we are not sharing the future with maniacal, homicidal robots. If they're friendly robots it's ok. At least so long as they don't assimilate me, but I think those are zombie cyborgs and they're never nice about anything.

Well unless you rescue them from the Collective.

[Blacksmoke]

Originally Posted by Syra

You better believe Atlus USA has designers on staff, who do you think makes the cover art?

It's not always Atlus USA, that's for sure. I'll wager in fact that it's rarely them. Only game I can think of is Persona 3 which had alternate North American cover art (lord knows why in the first place). Also I suppose the Catherine cover art editing/censoring (which I also disliked). Otherwise cover art is created in Japan.

Originally Posted by Syra

Coders, however, are not. When you don't get source code, you've got nothing for programmers to do. So, Dual Audio becomes more difficult. For one, art assets are easier to come by because they're early work, the art teams are basically done long before the programming teams. Getting art assets for art books, or even soundtracks is actually a lot easier because of this. Now publishing often times has a time gap, so that isn't always as obvious as many times these artists move to new projects, but even then, finished assets are a lot easier to transfer over than ones that need work, which simply makes art books and soundtracks a lot easier than dual audio.

The original point was actually about time, money, and resources. Both dual audio and artbooks cost resources, I'm simply pointing out that it's not completely unfeasible to do something for the fans, even though it's not directly profitable.

Originally Posted by Syra

Add to this another issue you don't even seem to comprehend, legal issues. Voice actors and actresses have to give you the rights to use their likenesses. It's entirely possible their contract with Atlus Japan doesn't give permission to overseas distribution of said likeness, which would mean there would need to be further discussion with regards to that. This adds yet another hurdle that no one seems to understand, because I guess people think voice actors are robots and have no rights.

Nice tone there. If you've read my posts, I clearly point this out and note that it's something Atlus USA will have to negotiate with the parent company in Japan. And although I have no opacity into their business and realize that voice acting studios can be difficult to work with, I believe that it should be easier for Atlus USA to negotiate this with them, given they are a direct subsidiary than, say, some third party.

Originally Posted by Syra

There is a significant money, time, and legal investment into dual audio, and while other things share some of these traits, none that you have listed are as severe. Art books need permission to use the assets, and you've got to design them and print them, but you also have a time gap between when the game gets translated, and when it gets printed due to sending it back to Japan for coding, so hey, that's time you can spend on an art book. Dual audio? Not so much. This is even more true due to the fact dual audio requires that significant investment not only of Atlus USA, but also of Atlus Japan, and this means both companies must be in agreement, and it should be obvious why that's a significant hurdle.

I don't know about "significant" and I don't know if you are an expert on this topic yourself. All I have to go off is that other companies do it and seemingly stay in business and don't bend over backwards or go bankrupt.

I will concede that Atlus USA and Japan have to work together (I have noted this before). These two have a close working relationship, however, and I simply implore Atlus USA to make use of it and, on behalf of their fans in North America, lead conversations in including dual audio in their game(s).

Originally Posted by Onion of Mystery

You don't understand, Shepard. We have these threads every game so that the cycle may continue and the forum is not destroyed by a sub/dub war that lasts forever. The best arguments from the previous cycle are preserved for use in the next.

The only reason I participate in them is that, hopefully, you (Atlus) realize that there are people out there who want this feature.

Originally Posted by Hitoshura

Because English dubs are fine. The only reason people don't like English dubs is because they go into it with incredible, ridiculous, childish bias.

Hmmm.. you call them childish and yet you don't consider the fact that someone might sincerely dislike the voice acting? Not sure who the ignorant one is here.

Originally Posted by Hitoshura

These are the sort of people that have no honest desire to learn the Japanese language, yet they're going to whine up and down that English dubs make their ears bleed, and their precious Japanese voices are infinitely superior. I dodged the bullet with that one really, because I'm highly susceptible to the opinions of others and it takes me awhile to figure out my own, and when I first got into anime, my friend constantly told me that English dubs were terrible and to only watch the Japanese voices. Then, I started actually y'know, LISTENING to these English dubs with as little bias as possible, and going "what the hell? These are fine. These actors display a pretty great representation of these characters. What is wrong with people?" And then it hit me: Ignorance. Bias. These people aren't actually listening to these dubs, they're "listening" to them with the idea that they're "bad" in the first place, and receiving an incredibly skewed perception. Giving in to their ignorance and childishness (supplying dual audio) is only going to pervade said ignorance further. However, I believe that through continued forced exposure to English dubs that are actually good (which really, is about 90% of them, not EVERY game is Chaos Wars or Arc Rise Fantasia guys.) these strange individuals will finally start looking at English dubs from an unbiased and mature point of view. That, or they'll get off their asses and start learning Japanese so they can import for their precious Japanese voices.

A lot of that is your own opinion on whether English dubs are good or not. I'm not discussing that with you. You have your opinion and I have mine.

As for the "import" argument - why do you think that these games even get localized in the first place? Surely, we could all just learn the Japanese language and import the games?

Choosing English dub only, Japanese only, or dual audio when bringing over a game (or anime) is a localization decision (although there are other factors; legal, money etc) as is leaving in or excluding honorifics, changing names, references, etc.

Why should it bother you that I or anyone else prefers their localization to be more in line with the original? They're not "childish" or "ignorant" - they simply have preferences that should be respected.

[Foobar]

The only reason I participate in them is that, hopefully, you (Atlus) realize that there are people out there who want this feature.

They've already stated they make an effort, it just doesn't always work out. They give reasons for this. Your desire to repeat what they know is likely only annoying to them and the rest of us as well. There's informing and then there's nagging. This is nagging.

Back when I was in college, I was in an event programming society. A small bit of student fees and tuition went to fund the programming each year, we usually had $500,000 for that whole year in hopes of bringing in revenue. Now, some people were of the opinion they'd rather have a big mainstream act or two each year rather than dozens of acts, comedians and cultural events and that students should be able to vote for it.

Most of them wanted Dave Matthews Band.

We looked into it, though none of us wanted nothing to do for the rest of the year. We learned to get Dave just by himself would cost twice our budget. In other words, Dave said no. Pretty uppity for a guy that used to beg to play our venue for a what he could get back in the day, but it is what it is.

And so we had dozens of band, comedians and cultural events and stayed busy all year.

So while I don't translate or watch enough anime to pretend I know Japanese, I do have this experience with coordinating events, budgeting, promotion, writing PSAs, making newspaper ads, flyers, distributing flyers. I never got a cent for it, I just liked having shows put on for people.

If there was anything that got on my last nerve, it was those not involved in any of that thinking they had a say in how things actually happen. Turns out all the wanting in the world doesn't make people want less money for what they do.

It also reminds me that I hate the Binding of Issac guy because he said there was nothing to do in Boone. I heard a lot of that and as one that helped make things happen there it kinda pissed me off. Just because you run home to mommy to get her to do your laundry every weekend doesn't mean there's nothing to do in Boone >.>

Dumb kids from Charlotte, I swear.

[Yukichin]

It's not always Atlus USA, that's for sure. I'll wager in fact that it's rarely them. Only game I can think of is Persona 3 which had alternate North American cover art (lord knows why in the first place). Also I suppose the Catherine cover art editing/censoring (which I also disliked). Otherwise cover art is created in Japan.

The original point was actually about time, money, and resources. Both dual audio and artbooks cost resources, I'm simply pointing out that it's not completely unfeasible to do something for the fans, even though it's not directly profitable.

Again: ATLUS USA already has graphic designers that are quite capable. The cover art often has to be tweaked, and there's also the issue of advertisements, official websites (which may or may not be the same as the Japanese versions), and manuals. Those are vastly different than the difficulties/expenses involved in coding brand new menu options that could screw everything over. The parent company would likely rather spend more time working on their newer products than having to go through and code in a new option for an older game.

[Blacksmoke]

Originally Posted by Yukichin

Again: ATLUS USA already has graphic designers that are quite capable. The cover art often has to be tweaked, and there's also the issue of advertisements, official websites (which may or may not be the same as the Japanese versions), and manuals. Those are vastly different than the difficulties/expenses involved in coding brand new menu options that could screw everything over.

That's fine. I'm not disputing whether they have them or their quality. I'm not asking Atlus USA to code the dual audio in themselves (it would be nice) either. I understand that coding would likely have to be done by Atlus Japan, how many times must we go over this?

Originally Posted by Yukichin

The parent company would likely rather spend more time working on their newer products than having to go through and code in a new option for an older game.

Persona 4 Arena is an older game? Arena isn't developed by Atlus either, it's by a company that has shown several times that they are capable of including a dual audio option. And as for the The Golden, they're already opening it up to add a bunch of new features.

In any case, if it's not now or for these games then I hope this is something that will be discussed/included in earnest for future games.

[Inzaghi]

Originally Posted by Blacksmoke

In any case, if it's not now or for these games then I hope this is something that will be discussed/included in earnest for future games.

Originally Posted by Manly Biceps

We always try for dual audio, but there are a number of things that can/do prevent it from happening.

Step 8.